PETITION FOR MPC 60 and SP1200 QUANTIZE on MPC 1000/2500

There was a interview with roger linn and he sayed it explicitly. THERE IS NO MPC TIMING! All they tried to do is to make the midi responce as tight as possible. Maybee the different models managed to do this with differences in 0,0X milli-seconds. The Mpc 60, 3000, 2000, and 1000 sound different but this is mostly due to: differnet ad-da-converters, envelops, filters but no because of a "magial" swing built in.

If you want do a test. Record a straight 2/4 beat sequence to your computer with no midi involved. cut the samples on the same transient and put them on two audio tracks in your sequencer. now zoom from beat to beat and tell me the differences in timing (if there are any)

mikolo wrote:I'm very skeptical about any difference in timing between the swing on 60 ,2000 and 1000. they all have 96 ppqn and when you set a specific swing value - the notes will go to the same tick value. Any difference in timing is more likely to be because precise editing of sample start points isn't as accurate in the older models. I haven't used the sp, but i own a 60 and a 1000.

This theory makes the most since to me as editing on the 60/3000 can only be done by ear.
Those ms of "space" before the sample would greatly effect the grove and I know my own personal tendency to edit samples hella more surgically whenever there is a waveform editor present.

genko wrote:

JaeOne3345 wrote:Program with no soul, and your beats will have no soul.

what is this soul about ? LOL
i'm sorry guys but MPC different timings... is no myth perhaps you won't notice the difference...i do !
and why some of you don't use mpc 1000 timing correct ? it's probably because you find it too rigid.Anybody has the right to have his own process, that's not the point.
i love making music that's my passion, using timing correct doesn't mean you have no soul.
i'm not a professionnal drummer but i know when i like a groove.
when i use a mpc3000 or a sp1200, i'm always satisfy with the way my beats are grooving using quantification. On the mpc2500 i'm not as please with it. That's my point of view and that's why i though it would be great if JJ was able to program these new quantizes for his OS.it's probably possible, probably not...
but for what i see most of the people who talk on this topic are not interested by these fonctions. Or maybe the ones who are don't express themself because they don't want others to give them lessons on what should be the right way too make good music :p
don't take it personally, i was angry with my mpc tonight !!!
peace

those really old machines do waiver a bit when it comes to timing. i think that is purely because of the slower processors used back then and that they had to squeeze every bit out of them as they could to get everything they could offer. this coupled with low bit depth/sample rate samples and primitive/no pitching algorithms... all leads to a more organic impression. but i still say there is no timing built in. it just happens as a consequence of old technology.

Just as mikolo said they are all 96 ppqn sequencers if youre getting a different "groove" from using the same swing settings. Its because of the way the sample is trimmed. Anyone with a brain to think can make the slightly off beat dilla sound or primo boom bap with their drums. The magic swing is a myth, stop fooling your self... Anyone telling you there is magic swing inside these machines is probably trying to sell you theirs....

dunno, but the swing setting on the 2000xl gets different result when set at the same parmters, on the 1000 when using the same sounds. the 2000xl sounds just that bit better. ive done blind tests with audio recordings from both. i set all envelopes fully open and attack setting of 0.

the mpcgroove is just sloppy timeing. i'd prefer the JJteam to make the 1k tighter. sample-exact timeing would be nice.

thank you.

sloppier TC is not a good thing
a good groove shouldn't rely on a machine's inability to keep tight time under what are supposed to be rigid timing rules, it should rely on improve the user's performance and sequencing ability.

i stand by the statement that no timing or groove created on the 3000 is impossible to create on the 1000.

i'm not asking JJ to remove the actual timing but just to have the possiblilty to choose between rigid and groovy.
i'm sure lots of people would be happy with "old school " quantize style.
Even if it is due to old electric components inside SP1200, MPC 3000/60, i feel a sort of MAGIC in these machines !
for now i'll give up in this request cause i don't want to loose time with something that is not needed by the most.
peace

Scarecrow wrote: Anyone with a brain to think can make the slightly off beat dilla sound or primo boom bap with their drums. The magic swing is a myth, stop fooling your self... Anyone telling you there is magic swing inside these machines is probably trying to sell you theirs....

be open mind Scarecrow, i'm not feeling you have a brain right now.

Just had another discussion about this in the comparison thread. It is not sloppy timing or resolution ppqn that is affecting the "feel" when quantizing. There is actually something to it.

The higher the resolution, the more accurate the recording is. This is important for capturing smaller timing variations in the original performance.

When quantizing, most sequencers will snap notes to a grid that is perfectly even. If there is no strength parameter then this 100% alignment will sound stiff and unnatural.

At least certain MPCs will quantize to a grid that is not perfectly even. It is not random because it is consistently placing certain positions slightly behind or ahead every time. If it was completely random it would not sound good. Not sure if this was intentional in the design or in fact a flaw but it sounds good.

This is how you groove quantize in a DAW. By importing a midi sequence into a groove engine you tell that DAW to snap to the midi files position rather than strictly linear when using the groove template. I have used a 16 note hi hat pattern quantized on the MPC and imported as a midi file. You can see the notes are aligned differently than the original grid of Cubase. When quantizing with these it always sounds way better. This was done at zero swing and all swing settings.

I do not know the difference between MPC models but apparently some quantize different than others. Since we are dealing with midi files it has nothing to do with how samples are trimmed.

The other thing that is separate to quantize and resolution is the machines ability to keep a steady time for playback and recording. All midi sequencers have what is called jitter. Jitter is sloppy timing. The less jitter the more accurate the clock. Hardware devices typically have less jitter than computer sequencers. This is especially if it is a windows computer receiving midi data over USB. A test done on an MPC60 or 3k(don't remember) showed a very low jitter. This even more so than resolution has the greatest impact on timing even when quantizing.

b-righteous wrote:
I do not know the difference between MPC models but apparently some quantize different than others. Since we are dealing with midi files it has nothing to do with how samples are trimmed.

trim a snare with some air in front of it, then compare it to a tightly edited snare and tell me trimming has nothing to do with it.

I actually remember reading on this site somewhere the mathematical equation for reproducing that older feel in the newer Mps... Its one of those things I always meant to check out, but let it go and now I have no idea where to find it.
One of the reasons I first bought an Mp was to find out if they really did have some kind of unique swing feature... I have yet to really mess with it, but I would love to find out once and for all. It seems to me that we may never really know, as many members here that I respect seem to have very different oppinions on the matter.

trim a snare with some air in front of it, then compare it to a tightly edited snare and tell me trimming has nothing to do with it.

Not saying that trimming won't have an affect on timing. What you described will delay the snare and create its own feel. Regardless of trim, I am only discussing midi files triggering the same sounds. Even with different kits the results are the same. The MPC groove templates has a better feel and they were extracted from an MPC after using T.C.

one of the best examples, would have to be in a small music program called bhajis loops for the Palm pilot, the swing on this is funky as. try it out.

Still going?

As an actual sp owner, I will say it again. Don't sweat the swing so much as the sound/ease of operation.

I still doubt anyone can tell me what drums on my page were sequenced with my sp-1200, mpc 1000, or my eps 16+. Remember, just because you hear something that sounds like it was sampled in the sp doesn't mean I sequenced it in the sp.