anyone noticing some unstable midi synching to keyboards?

I'm using a Novation K station with the Sync on the K Station set to external. The Midi Clock sync on the MPC4K is set correctly to control the delay BPM on the Novation -

It's all working fine except I'm hearing an echo-back...a real nasty snapping sound from the Novation. The OS on the novation has been updated. I've contacted novation about a soft thru on/off on the keyboard which typically would handle this problem, and supposedly turning the Local control off functions as a soft thru on. This is another letter I got from them:

..."the issue is most likely that the MIDI clock coming from the MPC is jittering around. This will cause the delay time to be recalculated and a new delay algorithm to be loaded each time a new tempo is detected. To do this, the old delay has to be ramped down very rapidly in order to load the new settings and this is what causes the click..."

That alone was tough to make sense of -

The 4K offers no soft thru control.

Anyone?

what are you trying to do

it sounds like there blowing smoke up your you know what

I use my mpc to sequence with my other gear and it seems to be simple to me I'm trying to figure out what exactly it is your doing to have this type of problem. assuming that you are encountering these problems while basically composing a beat from scratch . I would say that the solution to this problem would be to shut all that external sync stuff off on both machines. what I do is just take a plug from the out of the triton to the in of the mpc and one from the out of the mpc to the in on the triton and all the other modules get one in from the out of the mpc . with your gear pluged up like this you will be able to record sequences with sounds from all your modules with the mpc with out any jitter . the only time I use the sync and external sync stuff is when I want to trigger playback from pro tools so that I can record the tracks individually

JD..The issue is using the MPC clock to control the Delay timing on the Novation...via the(MPC)

You set the novation (or any keyboard...I'm sure yours can do this too) to receive external clock rather then have it respond to it's internal clock
So you set the keyboard clock source (usually under a global setting) to external. That way the BPM on the MPC will control things like delay, pann etc...on the keyboard...in any way you want.

It's a cool thing if you know how to set it up 'cos it locks things up really tight.

never mind -

sound to me like the novation don't filter the midi clock well. Did ya try it with other external midi clock than da 4K? I'm sync'in' other machines to the midi clock from da 4K and they lock good.

Hey DB - I don't have another keyboard to try it on...
But I think you're right, neither the K station or the MPC offer soft-thru, so I'm thinking that might be the prob-

Do you turn the soft-thru on your keys in your case..?

Bop

yo Bop, WTF soft-thru gotta do with this?
my keyboard goin' into da 4K is on Local Off and that's it.

Beat Master -

The soft thru on/off eliminates this type of "echo"...I think..if I understand this midi shiet correctly...local on/off deals more with the controls (freq, resonance) on your keys being either on or off.

either way..thanks for checkin' in -

Nah... Local Off means yer keyboard ain't sendin' nothin' (keys, controllers, etc) to its internal sounds, everythin' goes to the midi out. It's like havin' a midi keyboard and a separate sound module. Midi goes from the keys to da 4K in and da 4K sends it to whatever out/channel is selected in da track.

bebop!

i encountered similar probs synchin my mpc to a virus! once i ve sended 3, 4 tracks to the virus, it played the sounds accompanied with some xtraweird annoyin sounds! i think it was cos the virus got overloaded by to many messages!

now i have solved this problem somehow by turnin of (on the mpc) any program changes in tracks (cause i don't need them anyway!)

don't know whether this solves your prob! in my case it did so (at least it seems from my experiences in the past 2 weeks)

if u wanna try hit in the track window the window button and switch everythin off! also set prog change in track window to off!

hope that helps

alto

Thanks Alto - I'll try and let you know -

Bop

I've had similar problams with my mpc 4000 and my sound modules. My production setup consist of my 4000, a motif rack, fantom XR rack(new), mofat rack, and a triton rack. All racks are coming from midi ins to midi outs on the MPC 4000. I have a Roland PC-70 keyboard controller hooked up midi out to midi in on the mpc. Now here's the similar problem:
When I make a beat, say using all sounds from either of modules, and modules set to performance, song, or multi mode depending on module. I would press play on the mpc and there would be a slight slight delay only when the beat started. I changed all sound modules clock to read external midi clock, but the problem persisted. So I basically try to live with it thinking it was a glitch, but it started making me mad. After searching forums and experimenting, I found the problem. It was the program change function. For some reason, when I use the program change function on the mpc to change the sounds in the sound module, it would create this delay when you press playstart on the mpc. I decided not to use program change and the delay went away. Therefore, I had to go back and reload my beats and turn all the program changes to off. It was tedious but it helped. I haven't tried program change in the new OS 1.51, but I will now that the topic is up. I don't know if doing this will help you but its worth a try if your using the program change function.

A delay caused by program change messages is mostly a problem on the receiving side of the MIDI link, the synths.

The mechanism used is very simple. When a synth receives a program change (PC) message, it changes to the new sound. But it can't do that without a short delay. That's the time it takes to set the hardware to the new sound's parameters. Especially effect units built into the synth need their time. Most MIDI synths (or other MIDI devices) that support program changes have this problem. They all blank out for 200-500 ms, but I've seen synths that take a full second.

So it's probably not the MPC that is the problem here. I'm sure it sends the MIDI note messages right after that initial PC message to the synth, but it is the synths that make PC messages in the middle of a song impossible.

There are several workarounds, but none of them are perfect. You could intialize your synths in a silent one-bar sequence that you play before the song starts. Good for studio, but not nice in a live setup. Alternatively, you could try to send the PC to the synth when you're not using it in the song, a few bars before the new song starts. That means that you have to strategically insert your PC messages in your sequence.

Well, this is all very interesting...but it's unrelated to what I was describing, so if you guys are checking into this thread, check this out one more time.

I'm not using any program change ..that's not my problem then I don't think. If you have synth racks, try this out and let me know what happens:

Set your synths clock source to external.
Have a patch set with a delay effect that you can clearly hear, and set the delay to whatever parameters you want --1/4, 1/2 note..etc.
Set the MPC correctly to synch out to the synth.

Now, when you start your sequence, the bpm of the song on your MPC should control the "delay" effect.

Verify in fact that it's working by slowing down the BPM of your sequence and make sure the "delay" effect follows too by slowing down in porportion.

Now, my problem is that when using this technique, I get this snapping sound with the bounce of the delay (1/4, 1/2 note ..whatever)pop,pop,pop,pop,

It's a feedback loop of some kind...

Now, the way around this is to not use the the external clock source on the synth, and rely on the internal, which you set the correct BPM to match your song.

But, this way does'nt allow for a really tight sound you can get by the technique layed out above...nor does it allow you to do gradual tempo changes and have the delay follow -

Now, I'm speaking of a delay effect here. This external type synching of course can also be used for any effect parameter on your synth..panning verb, flange etc. I'm noticing it mostly with using delay.

Any more thoughts...or better yet, try what I'm doing and see if you get the same problem.

Bop