Important: 4k bugfix update

^ They need to get the 5k out first which should be shortly. Hopefully we hear some good news after that.

Without knowing code, I think it is pretty safe to say that you cannot simply add "huge amounts of headroom" to a device. Having the ability to crank it up, so you can crank down the master has the same end result as leaving the levels level (or lower), then keeping the master as is.

scd, the global volume IS adjustable. It is pretty easy to get clipping when it is at 0db, so it is most likely an overall volume attenuation. I just don't see the point in needing to go down below -18db just so you can add + gain on every keygroup, program and part. Its a basic mixing concept to start with the best signal and cut from there.

There are probably several ways to approach the issue (maybe using percentages instead of DBs?), but all would take a lot of work, trial and error, and would undoubtedly change the way previous projects sound and behave. With the complexity and lack of gameplan, it might not be worth the trouble for now since there are quite a few other bugs that would be much easier to fix and get out of the way while we still have a chance.

adrian wrote:@ scd What is the word from your contact @ AKAI? Do they plan on fixing any of the bugs?

My contact said that he will try to find room for the programmers to do a (partial) bugfix update this year. I have more than enough faith in that guy that I am confident he will indeed do his very best to make it possible.

He also said this could only happen if there is a list of reproducable bugs because a lot of time will be saved with that.
I am allowed to enter those bugs into Akai's 4k bugtracker that is still existing.
So from that list Akai will determine what will be solved (and maybe what not. All depending on the complexity of a bug and the chance of introducing new bugs etc.)

We can't demand anything, so best we can do is produce that list and give them some good reasons!

I will enter some feature requests as well, mostly because they are related to bugs or related to poor implementation.

They are working now on the release of the 5000, so nothing will start before that. I will ask him about it again as soon as the 5k is out.

Bottomline: nothing certain yet, but a good chance, I do believe.

McSmooth wrote:scd, the global volume IS adjustable. It is pretty easy to get clipping when it is at 0db, so it is most likely an overall volume attenuation. I just don't see the point in needing to go down below -18db just so you can add + gain on every keygroup, program and part. Its a basic mixing concept to start with the best signal and cut from there.

Agreed, but the complexity of the 4k makes this way of working much less pleasent than on a "normal" mixingdesk or software.

McSmooth wrote:There are probably several ways to approach the issue (maybe using percentages instead of DBs?), but all would take a lot of work, trial and error, and would undoubtedly change the way previous projects sound and behave. With the complexity and lack of gameplan, it might not be worth the trouble for now since there are quite a few other bugs that would be much easier to fix and get out of the way while we still have a chance.

Could well be true. I have my doubts too. Then again, letting them read about the problem can't hurt
I find the MPC 4 ME template way of doing things a good workaround as well.

"I just don't see the point in needing to go down below -18db just so you can add + gain on every keygroup, program and part. Its a basic mixing concept to start with the best signal and cut from there."

I agree to a point my gripe is if you can't meter something and you are not running into audible distortion then its hard to work around a gain ceiling especially when its shared by so many different stages.
Its the vagueness of the situation.

I am all for correct gain staging however within this there is a little tooo much guess work.
g

precisely - the only metering on the MPC4000 is in the recording input meters.

As a workaround tool to investigate what was going on, I actually used these (set to record the MPC4000 main out bus) with test sequences where the velocity rose steadily from v=1 to v=127, so I could see what amplitude changes I was actually get from my velocities, and what the FX return level was.

Akai simply made the user interface WORSE in this respect by putting in the "mixer mode" page, because it DOES have a traditional mixing desk metaphor, but the controls generally don't work like that!

cmon jees foge.
If you go mixing or creating a project in Logic, Cubase, Ableton Live or mix with an analog desk, you will always pull down the volume of each channel before you start. Thats common sense. Why don't you do this on the MPC as well? You sound like a baby sometimes. There's really no other way other then to use my workaround. I hope Akai wont update this, because as SCD mentioned, you will not be able then to load your existing 1.70/1.71 projects correctly due to a different gain architecture

ah but there'd be a workaround for that: don't install the OS update

feline1 wrote:ah but there'd be a workaround for that: don't install the OS update

Here is my proposal for the bugbase:

I think after reading all this and checking out myself best solution is to leave things as they are. A change will bring more trouble than fun I suspect. Besides, this goes way beyond a bugfix, so chances are small that Akai is willing to do anything in this respect.

However, I can ask if they can provide us with some proper gain architecture diagram (good idea David).
And maybe one of us can write a short written "gain manual" which should be enough to improve the workflow with this issue for most users.

Can we agree on this? More suggestions?

I agree that it is beyond the scope of bugfix - it would be a whole new OS, so we should forget it

and I hope personal abuse will stop on this thread

feline1 wrote:ah but there'd be a workaround for that: don't install the OS update

Funny thing is, I still use OS 1.70...

MPC 4 ME wrote:

feline1 wrote:ah but there'd be a workaround for that: don't install the OS update

Funny thing is, I still use OS 1.70...

He meant the OS update that has to be made yet. I think.

yeah i know/knew whateever

do you think we could twist there arm to allow the mpc4k to load 1k programs???
Its a feature but.......
would be a nice gesture wouldn't it?
g

seconded