underground production has a certain offbeat swing to it?

Monk didn't play "wrong notes". But he insisted on recording 1st take - and that's it. That was the point of my retort.

Monk could play things so perfectly that he could then break down time signatures and chordal progressions and improvise on the outcome.

There's no right or wrong in music. Quantize can be used to keep things relatively on time but its not neccessary for the Max Roach, Bernie Purdies of the world. They can play in time. I think MPC users are spoilt for ease of playing. A kid in his bedroom with no musical skills can bake up a tight rhythm.

A lot of the examples given in this thread (the dillas, the madlibs, etc) are not arranged out of time. Yes, it is slightly syncopated but there's some quantizing going on there. Its deliberate but calculated.

It makes for a nice refreshing style which complements the ubiquitous 4/4.

Hip Hop benefits from experimentation, IMO. It takes it forward but still acknowledges the past.

There are definately "classically wrong notes" but I hear what your saying about there being no right or wrong notes. Monk knew the rules and how to bend and twist them. A kid in the bed room without some classic training or some time in the woodshed honing their skills might be able to make a beat on time but it won't sing like Dilla's or Madlib's.

if there are no wrong notes then why do harp on about the benefits of learning music theory? why do peeps care to learn chords and scales? it think they are useful.

i dont know if my shit is key i just do what sounds good but some peeps will only do things that are in key.

i think dilla had some training in music, there are guys that are classic trained and they make amazing music that can replicate the styles of dilla or whoever or there own style.

there other cats like lib that are self trained but the music is natural to them that can pick things up and have the knack for it.

again i must stress the requirement to reach a certain level of proficiency before u disregard the rules, monk aint start playing random notes from the outset, he learned how to play standard stuff then developed his own style.

same with bruce lee he neva just created jeet kune do from day one, thats ignorance, the dude studied and mastered several martial arts then from their limitations he created a new style.

True Dat.

jpeg wrote:them left field type artists are good to a point but it is very over done and some use it as an excuse for sloppy working claiming experimental.

i agree but be very careful ive written off people as sloppy or they suck in my younger days to later on realize that its genius stuff there making its kinda like the rock guitar argument its not about complexity itas about creating moods and atmosphere soundscapes in ur mind triggering memories its souls touching souls the unseen connection and if a simple 3 chords or loop can do it u then whats a souless symphony gonna do for ur tho i always chop even if i loop i chop the loop

whats off beat? i dont think "offbeat" is the right word to use. i never thought dilla was offbeat, I just think he hit the pocket in his own way, he had alot of his own groove/swing/swag/whatever, but it aint off beat (same with other dudes, madlib,lotus,etc.). if he is offbeat, then all good music is off beat. I do think the dudes that are trying to replicate are offbeat, thats why they sound like shit, cause they really are offbeat.

just cause you have quantize on or off dont mean nothing. you can have it off and still sound perfectly quantized or have it on and still sound off beat. depends on the sample, depends on your ability.

if you look at jazz leads, you may have your 1/8th notes. a jazz player would swing the 1/8ths. quantizing gives you less spots you can record your notes vs not quantizing. what is it, 96 resolutions? if you don't quantize, you can use all 96 vs if you quantize to whatever, your notes will be moved to whatever the quantize setting. my bad about the rant, pocket is pocket, i agree with a lot of what everyone says, but it's up to you, watered down or not. seems like a lot of cats these days have sloppyass drums as if it would make up for poor, subpar sampling. for example, having some sloppyass drums with some weird electronic shit over it.

some loose drums i did a monf back
http://soundcloud.com/tunnelno5/fallin

This might be interesting for anybody interested- http://rougesfoam.blogspot.com/2009/06/ ... wonky.html