Maschine...

Askia Shaheed wrote:Its weird to read that an MPC has limitations when integrating with a DAW.

Previous to Maschine, there wasn't anything that was like a MPC that offered the type of integration with software setups like Maschine does, such as being able to run as a plugin in a DAW, drag and dropping of patterns into DAWs as audio or midi, triggering scenes from a DAW...etc. No need to worry about things like external midi sync like with MPC which has been a problem for many when it comes to timing and stability depending on the software.

Askia Shaheed wrote:Maschine does not sample or sequence better than an MPC, But I don't have to defend an MPC, it stands on its own.

You seem to make a lot of bold claims like that without explaining it. Can you elaborate on why you think so?

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few things that Maschine does better than MPC when it comes to sampling. When sampling with Maschine, you can set the number of bars to record, in sync with the tempo. And once you sample something, you can do things like duplicate and slice much faster. The new ability to zoom into waveforms from the hardware and preview slices are much better than the MPC. As for sequencing, the option of a powerful tactile step sequencer that gives visual feedback through LED-lit pads gives Maschine the edge as it allows for much more creative experimentation than just having the regular sequencing method.

Askia Shaheed wrote:Maschine is no where close to an MPC when it comes to sequencing.

Again, you keep making these assertions without any explanation.

Askia Shaheed wrote:It is also not on par with any of the leading software samplers nor hardware samplers like the MPC 4000 and 5000.

I wonder why then a long-time MPC user would say that "Maschine KILLS my MPC4000, period." and someone who has been a "die hard MPC user for more than 10 years" gets rid of the MPC5000 for being "archaic" and embrace Maschine because "just about everything that I wanted in a hardware piece was implemented in Maschine"?

exit, no romance wrote:I think this depends on the person. Many people are extremely productive using Battery, Kontakt, and other tools, and also have fun using them. Those same people still enjoy that workf flow.

That's definitely true. There are people who can be productive with just software and using the mouse a lot. I actually don't mind using software/midi controller/mouse when I'm editing/arranging/mixing in my DAW. I was talking about people that prefer not to work like that when composing which includes myself and many MPC users because the workflow I get with MPC and Maschine allows me to "get lost in the flow" that I can't get with software/midi controller/mouse setup. If software (which is always more powerful) with midi controller and mouse is good enough for someone to do everything, then there's no compelling reason for that person to get a MPC or Maschine.

exit, no romance wrote:Really, I will never understand what provokes someone to try and convince others to use what they use anyway, or to try to validate their own choices by questioning other people's choices.

I don't either as that's not what I'm doing. Same applies to people who seem to have so much of their ego attached to the equipment they invested in that if anyone suggests that there might be something else that works better, they get all worked up and defensive about it by taking it personally. All I've been doing here is sharing info about Maschine with other MPC users who may have previously dismissed due to misconceptions about what it is, as many have done here ever since it came out, like how it's just a "overpriced midi controller" or a "usb dongle". But instead of discussing the pros and cons of it, most people have resorted to personal attacks towards me for having the nerve to mention it here or assuming that I'm getting paid by someone to post here. It's clear that the fact that many long-time MPC users like me have abandoned the MPC in favor of Maschine just ticks off some of the more insecure MPC users on here. I'm not trying to convince anyone what to use. For some MPC is just the right tool, especially if you're sequencing external hardware and do not use software tools as much, or at all. But there are also many who are frustrated with the limitations of MPC yet do not enjoy using software with mouse and midi controller when composing. It's for those people who might find Maschine to be just what they were looking for that I'm sharing info about it here.

exit, no romance wrote:The Maschine is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't do anything new.

Maschine is a new concept of a hybrid that has never been done before so I would say that it does do something new. Aside from features that no other gear has had before it does combine features that have existed in other gears in a way that's never been done before. It's like using MPC and electribe synced with Ableton Live's session view but it's better because it's seamlessly integrated so no external midi sync issues or routing and timing headaches. And it doesn't just combine features from other gear. NI has actually improved upon the best features of those other tools. Again, Maschine's step sequencer is definitely new and more powerful than what you would find on an Electribe. It also had APC40-like Ableton Live clip matrix mode many months before APC40 was even shipping. How about a MPC style gear without limitations of on-board memory like 128MB/512MB? How about changing the pitch of samples on the fly by just turning the knob instead of having to process and wait for it?

We seem to have come to an agreement or at least clarification of views on all except...

emptysea wrote:Maschine is a new concept of a hybrid that has never been done before so I would say that it does do something new.

I believe Maschine does things differently, definitely, but currently it doesn't do anything new. To me there's a difference between the two. That rhymed, but not purposely.

It's like using MPC and electribe synced with Ableton Live's session view but it's better because it's seamlessly integrated so no external midi sync issues or routing and timing headaches.

I almost mistook you as saying that Maschine's Scenes and Patterns where better than Ableton Live's Session View, Scenes and Clips. I then realized that maybe you were referring to Maschine having similar features and the act of syncing hardware with a DAW, being in Maschine's favor. I can agree with the latter.

However, Maschine is not without it's own shortcomings in this area. Many users have expressed their frustrations with trying to use Maschine with other software products when using it stand-alone. If NI had adopted the ReWire protocol maybe this would not be an issue, but I'd say currently it is just as much a hassle, if not more getting Maschine (stand-alone) to work with your DAW and other software. In the end this makes syncing an MPC to a DAW not as bad as it initially seems. Some users have devised clever workarounds, but they are still just workarounds (IAC drivers, two computers, ect). Though I am one of the people who prefer to use Maschine as a plug-in, for users looking to use Maschine as a complete solution this simply is not realistic at this point.

If that was not enough there are also quite a few issues with the plug-in also. When using Maschine as an AU it doesn't support MIDI routing from plug-in to plug-in, and though this is a limitation imposed by Apple, this is Maschine's domain and forte, so it is still reflected upon Maschine's usability. Even as a VST(i) various DAW have quite a few restrictions with routing, for example with Live, Maschine can only address and sequence a single external plug-in using it's MIDI facilities (using Kore 2 doesn't count!). Sure, you can use Drag & Drop audio or MIDI, but this only further adds to the lack of independence of Maschine, and it also often ruins the whole "Lost in the Flow" idea for most people. Then there is the act of changing scenes and patterns in Maschine using notes or Program Changes when you want to do complex changes, which from DAW to DAW is not always very intuitive. Also, despite the Controller Editor being one of the best editors for such products and Maschine being a really good controller, it's not often a "flick of a wrist" to set it up to control even some of NI's own product offering without small miracles on the part of the user. Maschine is a great concept and a cool product, but it also has it's own "gremlins" in it's work flow.

And it doesn't just combine features from other gear. NI has actually improved upon the best features of those other tools.

Improvements don't always translate to better. Maschine is great in that it brings so many things together in a way that's very ideal, accessible and usable for many people, including myself, but I fail to see how it's any better on a technical level. Instead I can only see how it's more convenient for a lot of users, including myself, at times. Maschine has a lot of it's little gems, but as a unit, it is still taking inspiration from it's ancestor, the MPC, and is still slowly coming to match it's feature set. Maschine has the potential to exceed the MPC feature wise, on a technical level, being that it can be almost endlessly updated. Currently though, there are still some "no brainer" features that NI still hasn't added that even old MPCs have. There are even more that they have just recently added that were MPC mainstays (even in the newest 1.5).

As we both admit though, the Maschine does have a lot of cool things that the MPC doesn't, at least not implemented in such an intuitive was as NI has done with this product. Example would be the way Step Mode is implemented, which is awesome for live use. How pitch and automation is handled compared to the MPC and many more things that once you did into the Maschine you really come to enjoy...and defintely despite the dependence on a DAW for it, Drag & Drop are great features and exporting is much quicker than tracking out from a MPC. These aren't new things though, they're just done differently.

Again, Maschine's step sequencer is definitely new and more powerful than what you would find on an Electribe.

Yes, but I personally don't see the Electribe as the pinnacle of sequencers, despite me being in agreement with you.

How about a MPC style gear without limitations of on-board memory like 128MB/512MB? How about changing the pitch of samples on the fly by just turning the knob instead of having to process and wait for it?

Of course the Maschine surpasses the MPC when it comes to on board resources. I mean, it's software that works on a major OS. However, if one was to compare Maschine to the lot of it's software brethren it also seems a bit stunted. Maschine can currently only record at 16bit word length, all major DAW go well above that (even the MPC4000 exceeds that). Maschine is not multi-core aware and it is also one of the most unjustified resource hogs in it's genre of software. Maschine's Scenes and Patterns pale compared to Live's Session View. Maschine lacks a proper Song Mode, like the MPCs or Live. Maschine's automation is still premature compared to Live or a more advanced DAW. It's librarian and management facilities are a joke compared to Kontakt or such. Maschine does not support true time signatures (meter), doesn't have groove templates (for those who need such a thing), and so on. One can go on for ever saying how Maschine beats MPC and MPC beats Maschine and DAW beats or loses to both. The point is, Maschine is cool, but it's definitely not end game or even close. I love the damned thing, but I'm just making an honest assessment.

I been a yaysayer and naysayer for both sides, as I fit on both sides and feel each has valid points. I find a place for both MPC and Maschine, and a DAW and other plug-ins alike. I actually agree with a great deal of your views, disagree with some, and on the same token agree and disagree equally with some of the points made by others who are polar opposites to you, for example Askia Shaheed. I'm in the middle. I think it's great for what it is, but nothing more.

I'll leave it at that though, because I really don't have much to say about it other that what I have. I'd rather go use it.

Longest post I've ever....

Yeah, no equipment is perfect for everyone, for sure.

exit, no romance wrote:Maschine's Scenes and Patterns pale compared to Live's Session View. Maschine lacks a proper Song Mode, like the MPCs or Live. Maschine's automation is still premature compared to Live or a more advanced DAW.

One thing that Maschine does better in the non-linear pattern-based sequencer department compared to Live's session view is real-time recording of automation. One of the main complaints of Live users over the years has been the inability of Live's session view to do this very simple yet essential thing, which is to tweak a knob and have that parameter tweak recorded into your clip/pattern. Maschine's pattern sequencer is very limited compared to Live's session view in most other areas, but it does excel at the one big thing that Live cannot do without cumbersome hacks and workarounds.

I like using Maschine standalone and nothing else for some things but my preferred way to use it is as a VST plugin inside Live using drag/drop audio and arranging in Live's session view. Maschine is a great controller for Live as well. They almost seem made for each other.

emptysea wrote:

Askia Shaheed wrote:I wonder why then a long-time MPC user would say that "Maschine KILLS my MPC4000, period." and someone who has been a "die hard MPC user for more than 10 years" gets rid of the MPC5000 for being "archaic" and embrace Maschine because "just about everything that I wanted in a hardware piece was implemented in Maschine"?

ok......i bought one and it was nothing like hardware actually!!!!i mean youl need some pretty strong drugs to think otherwise.like someone else said,kinda clinical with no balls.but...and its a big but,i actually love software so maschine is like mana from heaven probably.i love using the mouse.i dont need it to be just like hardware as ive got the real thing.mpc,drums lots of objects to hit and record!!!stop this madness btw.let people find out in there own time instead of them believing all this crap.maschine is great.hurrah...so is fruity loops,hurrah.if you like your gear too much(emptysea)youl choke on it..irie, JaH RaStA FaRi BoM ShIvA

How about a sensible solution this madness, Integrate an MPC to Maschine and STFU.

Triplecrossed wrote:How about a sensible solution this madness, Integrate an MPC to Maschine and STFU.

exit, no romance wrote:As a Maschine user and MPC user...

I guess that excludes me then.

DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You sobs are making me start to wonder about maschine. If I buy it and it ain't good... expect a dead head in your bed Emptysea & followers.

What do you expect from Maschine that you can't do with your MPC2500?

peeps is looking at maschine the wrong way it aint all about new features its about convenience of having all ur sound available all the time and tight fast integration with a daw.

it also saves time tracking shit out and negates the need for midi chains to integrate sounds from different sources, so u can do more beats in a short space of time and try more ideas quickly

not if you have a gazillion sound modules and require more than 16 MIDI channels

for a home user they prolly dont need to control a bunch of hardware via midi as shit has advanced most of the modules r within the computer.

i personally have neva used midi so have no need for it so maschine or beat thang have the kind of feature set i require/ small fut print quick work flow

i dont wanna turn shit into a science project just wanna get creative with the least distractions

Lotuz wrote:What do you expect from Maschine that you can't do with your MPC2500?

Just wanna peep it out and see what its about, is there a demo available?