Kanye article / Sampling code of ethics.

Wow, I can't believe I just read the whole 10 pages of this thread. Lots of good points in there.

What it comes down to is that if you've ever sampled a record from this year or 50 years ago, you're copying/biting. Unless you've played every drum hit, every key, every hornblast, every bassline in your beats then you have no right to point fingers and tell others that they are not true.

We live in times where the technology is so advanced that we can take elements of many different musical genres and artists and create completely new songs of differnt genres. How do you know that if artists hadn't had rack samplers and drum machines 30 years ago that they wouldn't have sampled their contemporaries? They had what they had at their disposal and they made the music they could with it. This is the same thing that we are doing today.

Many rock legends borrowed (and stole) from other legends' styles to make their own music. They didn't sample them but they sure did benefit from the other's hard work. Many of you now sample artists who have stolen from other artists and chastise others for stealing from you. It's just a vicious cycle.

Hiphop music was built on biting and jacking resulting in the founders admonishing those who bit from what they were biting (make sense? not really huh?). We are all guilty of not being original when we sample so to point fingers is ridiculous. It's kind of like when prisoners have a hierarchy in jail where rapists and molesters are at the bottom. They're all criminals but they have the nerve to discriminate.

Underground hiphop is just that because there are too many rules that are only coveted by the nerds trying to keep it all to themselves. These purists and elitists will never allow the culture or the music to elevate because they are too busy trying to control it and keep others out.

I have my own code of ethics that I stick to when I sample to make beats but I never allow it to get in the way of making great music. The average listener doesn't care where you get your drums or your melodies from. All they care about is if they feel your music or not.

I have more of a problem with producers who use the same drums and bass tones for every song (ala 9th Wonder) and use some lame excuse as to why they do it. I'd rather they jack someone else's drums than bullshit me about having a signature sound because they're too lazy to dig for different sounds (but that's a matter for a different thread altogether).

In conclusion. Make bangin music, not rules. Good music will take hiphop much much further and keep it alive longer than any arbitrary, snobbish rules will.

Peace.

elmacaco wrote:Now biting is not adverse to capitalism, and if that's your main goal, do you're thing, but when the marketing cats try to pawn you off as somehow "real" or authentic, you will not fool us all.

Elmacaco....a thinker!!!
Ever considered politics???

That is the difference though, some are in it for the fame and glory, which can be wisked away without any warning, leaving you standing with your pants down!!

Others are in it for something deeper, Respect!! Not only from others, but more for themselves...Self Respect!!

And that CANNOT be wisked away!!

BassLINE wrote:Underground hiphop is just that because there are too many rules that are only coveted by the nerds trying to keep it all to themselves. These purists and elitists will never allow the culture or the music to elevate because they are too busy trying to control it and keep others out.

That's Bull!
Underground music in all genres is constantly changing as technology improves.
To say the underground movement is holding itself back is absolute @*%t!

It was an underground movement that started Hip Hop. Then the masses saw the bandwagon and decided to jump aboard for the ride, without any thought for who built the wagon in the first place!!

jigginz wrote:
That is the difference though, some are in it for the fame and glory,

are you implying this would be me?? lol....Even if I WAS in it for the money,(which I'm NOT, been at this schit for about 12 years and haven' made one penny) I would take a paycheck for some corny azz beat, why?? I got kids to feed.....Money pays bills, respect gets you a slap on the back.......When you have responsilities like children, house notes, car notes, uitilities, etc., Hiphop respect doesn't cut it in a man's world......So like I asked Matt, are you going to be giving away your beats for free??

jigginz wrote:

BassLINE wrote:Underground hiphop is just that because there are too many rules that are only coveted by the nerds trying to keep it all to themselves. These purists and elitists will never allow the culture or the music to elevate because they are too busy trying to control it and keep others out.

That's Bull!
Underground music in all genres is constantly changing as technology improves.
To say the underground movement is holding itself back is absolute @*%t!

It was an underground movement that started Hip Hop. Then the masses saw the bandwagon and decided to jump aboard for the ride, without any thought for who built the wagon in the first place!!

Yeah, the underground movement started it and is still strong. Some of the best (and consequently some of the worst) hiphop is to be heard in the underground. But "underground" itself is a hindrance. I remember when hiphop was just hiphop. Underground of 94 is not the underground of 2004.

You can't tell me you've never met strictly underground heads that were strongly opposed to (any and everything) the mainstream had to offer. This kind of close-mindedness is the same thing that's being addressed in this thread.

you got a job for me Jigginz ?

Sampling is not biting, it is not the same. Originality is not the point either, you can sample never before heard music and be unoriginal, and you can sample well known tuff and be original, that's not the point at all.

It's also not about purism vs. new school or whatever you want to call it. It's not about who can tell what you did or where you got what, it is about your actions and how you apply your craft. I would sample all your soundclick beats for snares and samples, but I know I can do better on my own, I don't need to stand on your shoulders. If I sample new hip hop to make new hip hop, guess what? It just got old. It is repatition ad nausium.

Like Kanye's "trademark" of the sped up soul vocal, RZA was doing that years ago, but he did it tastefully and then moved on. Kanye bit that style and rode it to death all the way to the bank and now it is passe. Now no one can do to Kanye what Kanye did to RZA, Now people will say you're biting Kanye, but when Kanye bit RZA, few people cared, because RZA stopped doing it, he didn't even bite current hip hop in that instance. Same as sampling scarface is done, no on ewhats to hear that shit because it's all been heard before, it is only the talentless who resort to it, or so it is treated. It is about your input, if you have no scruples, then that will come across, and sampling a kick or snare from a modern album speaks to the disrespect to the craft that is prevailant among the get rich quick kids, who will most likely not get rich but they will get nowhere fast.

elmacaco wrote:you got a job for me Jigginz ?

Sampling is not biting, it is not the same. .

Tell that to some of the original artists.... Why won't certain groups allow thier music to be sampled?? Because to them, it's STEALING.........

it is about your actions and how you apply your craft.

Again, why are you being so simple minded and just assuming someone will take the kick, DO NOTHING to it, and use it the way they lifted it?? Ever heard of layering, filtering, etc... They're functions on our MPCs..

sampling a kick or snare from a modern album speaks to the disrespect to the craft that is prevailant among the get rich quick kids

Do you know for an ABSOLUTE FACT, that legendary producers such as Rza, Dre, Pete Rock, Premier, etc etc have not done this??? Please as I mentioned before, post some video from when you were actually in the studio with these guys....I don't care what ANY producer says in a magazine, They simply do not tell the entire truth..... For example, in 96 Dre denounced gangster rap and said he was going in a new direction... What was he doing 4 years later? Gangster rap......Trust when I say this....producers do not tell all of thier secrets....

If sampling current hip hop is a producer secret, then They can keep that secret.

If RZA did it, it is still wrong, and I bet there is some residual guilt about it.

As for the original artists, sure they could call it stealing, but biting is not stealing, biting is a hip hop clasification, stealing is a judicial term that is struggling now with being able to copy software and audio without the original being missing. That's why intellectual property laws are being forged now. Biting was defined by hip hop. Do they think it is stealing to sample? Well the best answer to that is sometimes. But in a music that has embraced sampling, there is still a clear difference between sampling and biting, trying to equate the two is just a back door you are trying to create to escape really addressing the issue.

As for calling me simple minded, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings man, I'm not trying to say you are a biter at heart, but seeing as you used the same avatar as TruPro...

Like I said before, regardless of what you do to the sample, it is a source of pride for many people where they get their samples from. The rarer doesn't mean the better, but when you hear someone got their horns from an episode of sesame Street, it speaks to their creativity and inginuity (sp?). If you are going to process it so much, why not just grab samples from elsewhere? The whole 'making it your own' by effecting it is another backdoor to try to get out of addressing the issue. I addressed this earlier, you are effecting it to get away with it, since leaving it alone could get you called out. Or if you claim you are effecting it to sound 'good' then your techniques should work on any material, so why then is it so important?

See, if you are grabbing drums of anything and making them your own, why do you need to sample new material of the genre you are trying to contribute to? And if you are defending it so vehemently, it either means you do have some guilt about it, or that those kicks and snares you bite are so much better than what you can do with other sampling material that it is integral to what you feel you have accomplished.

You have not listed one good reason to sample current hip hop for material. I have listed many reasons and the history of hip hop as to why it is frowned upon, none of which you have disproven or even attempted to address, you just respond with excuses, try to equate what you are doing to the whole art of sampling (a reach at best!) insults, some weird backpacker nonesense (if Kanye is a backpacker, then surely I am not ) I listen to all sorts of music, mainstream and undergrund hip hop included, I like Ludacris's style (don't laugh!! Ok, stop it guys, enough!) and David Banner is interesting to me. I don't hate lil jon but it looks like his bag of tricks is just a shallow pocket at this point.

Now if you really want to have a discussion, get over yourself and bring forth something of substance, your opinion on suitable sample material may not change, but neither will the fact that it is, in the classic and current sense, biting.

elmacaco wrote:If sampling current hip hop is a producer secret, then They can keep that secret.

If RZA did it, it is still wrong, and I bet there is some residual guilt about it.

As for the original artists, sure they could call it stealing, but biting is not stealing, biting is a hip hop clasification, stealing is a judicial term that is struggling now with being able to copy software and audio without the original being missing. That's why intellectual property laws are being forged now. Biting was defined by hip hop. Do they think it is stealing to sample? Well the best answer to that is sometimes. But in a music that has embraced sampling, there is still a clear difference between sampling and biting, trying to equate the two is just a back door you are trying to create to escape really addressing the issue.

As for calling me simple minded, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings man, I'm not trying to say you are a biter at heart, but seeing as you used the same avatar as TruPro...

Like I said before, regardless of what you do to the sample, it is a source of pride for many people where they get their samples from. The rarer doesn't mean the better, but when you hear someone got their horns from an episode of sesame Street, it speaks to their creativity and inginuity (sp?). If you are going to process it so much, why not just grab samples from elsewhere? The whole 'making it your own' by effecting it is another backdoor to try to get out of addressing the issue. I addressed this earlier, you are effecting it to get away with it, since leaving it alone could get you called out. Or if you claim you are effecting it to sound 'good' then your techniques should work on any material, so why then is it so important?

See, if you are grabbing drums of anything and making them your own, why do you need to sample new material of the genre you are trying to contribute to? And if you are defending it so vehemently, it either means you do have some guilt about it, or that those kicks and snares you bite are so much better than what you can do with other sampling material that it is integral to what you feel you have accomplished.




You have not listed one good reason to sample current hip hop for material. I have listed many reasons and the history of hip hop as to why it is frowned upon, none of which you have disproven or even attempted to address, you just respond with excuses, try to equate what you are doing to the whole art of sampling (a reach at best!) insults, some weird backpacker nonesense (if Kanye is a backpacker, then surely I am not ) I listen to all sorts of music, mainstream and undergrund hip hop included, I like Ludacris's style (don't laugh!! Ok, stop it guys, enough!) and David Banner is interesting to me. I don't hate lil jon but it looks like his bag of tricks is just a shallow pocket at this point.

Now if you really want to have a discussion, get over yourself and bring forth something of substance, your opinion on suitable sample material may not change, but neither will the fact that it is, in the classic and current sense, biting.

Simply put, after reading all of that, you still haven't proved why it's "wrong" to sample snares and kicks off of current albums....What page is that in the Hiphop rulebook? I want to look it up and see if I missed something.....Regarding your "source of pride" comment.... Bottom line.... The listener won't give a shchit were you got the samples from, as long as they can bob their head to it....

If you are going to process it so much, why not just grab samples from elsewhere?

Why even process kicks and snares from an old jazz tune then??? Throw away your effects boxes....

Or if you claim you are effecting it to sound 'good' then your techniques should work on any material, so why then is it so important?

Exactly, you said it yourself, WHy is it so important whether someone uses a current albums kick or snare vs an old jazz record??

See, if you are grabbing drums of anything and making them your own, why do you need to sample new material of the genre you are trying to contribute to?

Why sample old material??

And if you are defending it so vehemently, it either means you do have some guilt about it, or that those kicks and snares you bite are so much better than what you can do with other sampling material that it is integral to what you feel you have accomplished.

Whats to feel guilty about??? It's kicks and snares man , if the beat rocks, it rocks regardless...

You have not listed one good reason to sample current hip hop for material

You haven't listed ANY good reasons why someone shouldn't.....

I have listed many reasons and the history of hip hop as to why it is frowned upon, none of which you have disproven or even attempted to address,

Please, point me in the direction where what you state is fact... I'd LOVE to see it.....what you're stating is opinion, same as I....Show me the Hiphop rule book so that I can read it, digest it, dream it, memorize it and keep in my head forever so that I nor anyone else will ever use kick or snare from a current album....

try to equate what you are doing to the whole art of sampling

lol at kicks and snares being the art of sampling.....

Now if you really want to have a discussion, get over yourself and bring forth something of substance, your opinion on suitable sample material may not change, but neither will the fact that it is, in the classic and current sense, biting.

Simply put, STOP SAMPLING... Taking somone elses work and using as your own is the same thing..sampling/biting......Look at the hundreds of records that came out where all the producer did to the musical sample was just pitch it up or down....Thats the exact same thing, biting.....One night a long time ago, I was listening to the Wake Up Show... They had a "Wake Up Show Classics" night. They played many of the samples used in various songs.....I was severely disappointed when I was listening when I found out that the producers did NOTHING to the original sample but loop it at a different pitch, add a kick and snare and call it a day.... Explain to me how that is not biting the original artist......I know exactly what you're gonna say.... "That was before chopping became an extensive practice"... Nonsense, they used the same machines as they do now.....Sps and Mpcs. Don't get me wrong, those cuts are still dope as fvck, but its crazy to say that grabbing a kick and snare from a current album is biting......Why don't you call the vocal or musical scratches that producers use in their songs bites?? Its current Hiphop sometimes is it not?? Whats the difference.... I see you evaded my "Danger" example....."when the east is in the house" scratch "oh my god" scratch "danger" scratch "Come Clean" beat.. I won't see your point of view, you won't see mine, but don't say someone is lazy or biting because of a kick or snare taken off of a current album is simply not true....I could say that all producers are biters since you can only write so many different types of drum sequences...Kick snare, kick kick snare, ki kick snare ki ki kick snare, ba boom.... snare kick kick snare


Don't limit yourself man.....

BassLINE wrote:

jigginz wrote:

BassLINE wrote:Underground hiphop is just that because there are too many rules that are only coveted by the nerds trying to keep it all to themselves. These purists and elitists will never allow the culture or the music to elevate because they are too busy trying to control it and keep others out.

That's Bull!
Underground music in all genres is constantly changing as technology improves.
To say the underground movement is holding itself back is absolute @*%t!

It was an underground movement that started Hip Hop. Then the masses saw the bandwagon and decided to jump aboard for the ride, without any thought for who built the wagon in the first place!!

Yeah, the underground movement started it and is still strong. Some of the best (and consequently some of the worst) hiphop is to be heard in the underground. But "underground" itself is a hindrance. I remember when hiphop was just hiphop. Underground of 94 is not the underground of 2004.

You can't tell me you've never met strictly underground heads that were strongly opposed to (any and everything) the mainstream had to offer. This kind of close-mindedness is the same thing that's being addressed in this thread.

You guys have some f*cked up perception off the underground... Underground is the reason this sh*t is still hear... Hip-hop was seen as a fad that would die out... If it weren't for the true hip-hop heads of the old school when it was all underground it would have never lasted...

And I'm not a strictly underground... You wanna know what kind of music I listen to... Good music... That's what kind... I could listen to Frank Sinatra in the same night as Madlib... And listen to Led Zepplin in the same night as Dr. Dre or Eminem... Gangstarr and Roberta Flack... It don't matter... If you're makin music from the ehart people are gonna sense that and pick up on it...

And spare me with this bullsh*t that Underground music can't get play in a club... That's cause the industry's set up that way... You can't tell me DM and Jemini couldn't be up in a club for b*tches to dance to or DJ Rel's... Ain;t that Underground... You sound retarded sayin sh*t like that...

It ain't got sh*t to do with Lil Jon being club music... It has to do with Lil Jon makin wack music... No Substance to it and no words... No Rhymes...

And someone (not on this thread, but on this site) said that everybody in the underground acts like the industry owes us something.... Bull sh*t... Most of the people in the underground had the opportunity to sign with a Major... They turned it down cause they knew they'd have to become a gimmick like 90% of the mainstream is... They'd have to conform to that cookie cutter bullsh*t that sells...

Jedi Mind Tricks, Madlib, Demigodz, Company Flow.... They were all offered majors at one point... Integrity seems to have gottne in their way so let's all persecute them and defend Lil Jon like he does anything special when every track out there today sounds the same... You's sound like idiots when you talk about the underground like you know a god damn thing...

lol at kicks and snares being the art of sampling.....

You know sh*t about hip-hop culture man... Go on your get rich quick style flavor b*tch...

MattMatiks PG wrote:

lol at kicks and snares being the art of sampling.....

You know sh*t about hip-hop culture man... Go on your get rich quick style flavor b*tch...

mattmatiks, hes right though, the"feeling" comes before "what did he sample for kicks and snares,etc" thats the backer....today i sampled a 5th dimension kick and a snare from the electric church orchestra (some str8 diggin sh!t yall cant fuc wit...fo real this is a rare record - and i damn well aint posting in the digging section, hahahaha!!!!!) and u know what it...it sits in the mix no better or no worse than the shit i sampled from a primo unrelesed instrumental album where he left the break wide open (thanks for the sanre and hat prim) and a a kick i got from a old big noyyd, all is fair game, its about the music not the means.

MattMatiks PG wrote:You's sound like idiots when you talk about the underground like you know a god damn thing...

Wow, strong words coming from an 18 year old. Now I'm not into the whole discriminating against people because of their age thing but when you get up on here and act like you know it all then you have to be checked. You act as if you yourself know everything. Be careful how you lash out at people like you know it all.

I've been listening to hiphop before the whole underground, mainstream split changed everything. If you were as well you'd understand how messed up things are now. So don't assume that your view of how the "underground is" is the right one because you did some web searches and came to some conclusions.

I have nothing against you but I really don't appreciate your tone.

BassLINE wrote: It's kind of like when prisoners have a hierarchy in jail where rapists and molesters are at the bottom. They're all criminals but they have the nerve to discriminate.

wtf? That's not the same thing.. Not even close!

ok.. So someone beats up and rapes your girl.. You arrive at the scene just when he's finishing what he came to do, and shocked by what you see you beat up the guy so that he barely survives. The cops come over and you both go to jail. Now that you're both criminals would you really consider yourself to be on the same level as that guy?

I know I wouldn't!