When is an instrumental track finished?

I'm new to this forum and i'm an old techno record producer from the 90's and have recorded several indie 12" releases, so i have the basic recording and arrangement skills to make dance music. So what, right? For years i've been a huge fan of Premo, Pete Rock, Large Pro, Diamond D, MF Doom and Madlib (YNQ) and own a MPC1000. I'm not feeling techno anymore and i'm producing hip hop shit in my spare time. I want to make some dirty, jazzy, funky shit to smoke to and i understand how and what to sample. i'm selling hundreds of techno records to buy old jazz/funk records and dig hard, but I want to know about arrangement. I want to make instrumental tracks that don't need anyone to rhyme over them to be intresting to the listener. When making a track that is designed to not have anyone spit on it, how do you know when the track is finished? i know you may need more production on the track than a 2-4 bar loop, drums and bass because you have to fill up the space where the rhymes would be. it gets boring listening to the same 2-4 bar loop with drums and bass for 3 mins. Anythoughts? Respect to all.

Short answer: it depends

Long answer: As long the listener feels that something happens and doesn't get bored I guess. When I make instrumental music (which I do mostly), I tend to mess the structure, the instrumentation and fx to create an illusion of constant movement in the song. If I've succeded, well, that's another story, but it might be worth thinking about.

short answer: When you feel its done

Long answer: When you feel in your heart its done



but to be serious, its up to you. when you feel the beat is finished and there's nothing more you can do to it. just dont over due it you know?

When i say so, nukka.

I seem to have the same problem. I just try to imageine somebody spittin and do the chorus and breakdown just as u normally would, but no vocals..Its your track make it how u want it, sometimes simple is better

maybe you should try to not imagine someone spitting... its an instrumental so the music should hold its own and not hope the mc covers it up or changes it up.
I dunno I have the same problem 2.
Pez.

i wanna see more respnses to this..
i think it happens when i get up from the mpc and lay some improv cuts over the beat for that last bit of interest...

Study some RJD2 or DJ Shadow stuff... Even if you're not lookin to do that exact style of instrumental hip-hop.... It's good to study becase their structure is flawless... They take several samples from several songs and actually create strrcutured instrumental pieces that move somewhere... The Drums never get boring cause they just know how to lace em so that they basically loop, but have a nice fill every now and then so it's not monotonous...

Study that... I'm still tryin to figure out how they do it, but you have that techno background so you should already have the jump on me... I mean Techno is based a lot on having the right base structure... So it's sorta the same, just with a different spin on it...

Hope this helps a little...

hip hop without the mc is no more hip hop period.

u want to make instrumental tracks, that's cool, but u cant do em if u never rocked with mcs and dont know hip hop that way.

im not sayin imagine an mc flow to it im sayin u have to make a mix, automation, breakdowns whateva having that feeling of a standalone producer rockin the mp with confdence and a constant seamless flow.

KEEP IT LIVE- that's the most important thing. play, perform and record the track from start to finish, then u can do adjustments and edits.

again try to rock with mcs and build on it, u need that or else ur shit wont be hip hop itll be trip hop, techno-jazz, acid-trip music.

its all gained with experience.

peace.

thanks for all the info, big up MattMatiks PG, you made the most sense to me. I will check thoose artists. I'm really feelin' the "Special Herbs" Series by MF Doom.

Yo Scizz-

"u want to make instrumental tracks, that's cool, but u cant do em if u never rocked with mcs and dont know hip hop that way."

I can and will rock instrumental tracks without a mc, and I do know about hip hop son. Do you call Special Herbs or Petestrumentals trip-hop? or techno jazz? there is plenty of boom-bap on that shit. But there is a fine line between trip-hop and hip-hop instrumentals. just because I use to make techno does not mean that I don't know hip hop son. But thanks for writting, and thanks for the info.

since you're well versed in techno, you have a sense of structure, i'm sure.

just do what feels right, there's no formula to making good music (unfortunately, so much hip hop tries to apply said imaginary formula to the music, which is why 99% of it is total shit, but that's for another thread). yeah, study some records, do some change ups, but don't make it too complicated. and keep your samples simple, you don't have to chop everything to a bitter end to make it unrecognizable, a lot of times it's interesting to throw in a melody that hasn't been altered. most of all, make sure your samples stay in tune and work well together. a lot of the time you've got say, strings from serge gainsbourg and guitar/drum breakdown from steely dan, and you want them to work together so badly, you can taste it...but it just won't happen...some things aren't meant to happen! haha.

good luck with it, and **** whatever "real hip hop" is. hip hop isn't a credibility you wear like a **** wrestling belt. if you think you can do it, go for it and call it hip hop. it's time to stop the incestuous elitism of "hip hop" which recycles the same tired cliches (ie pretentious battle rappers, faux gangsters, letsplundereverythingfromthe70s instrumentals, etc.)...

Sodajerk-

thanks and respect.

Lan the MPC Man wrote:Yo Scizz-

"u want to make instrumental tracks, that's cool, but u cant do em if u never rocked with mcs and dont know hip hop that way."

I can and will rock instrumental tracks without a mc, and I do know about hip hop son. Do you call Special Herbs or Petestrumentals trip-hop? or techno jazz? there is plenty of boom-bap on that ****. But there is a fine line between trip-hop and hip-hop instrumentals. just because I use to make techno does not mean that I don't know hip hop son. But thanks for writting, and thanks for the info.

YO,chill homeboy, i didnt mean it like that. if pete never rocked with mc's he never wouldve made petestrumentals. that record wouldnt be what it is if pete rock wasnt the hip hop producer he was and the only way to achieve that status is by collaborating with mc's.

and i didnt say u dont know about hip hop, i said u dont know hip hop in the sense of being in a group and rocking with an mc. ur a stranger to that experience, which will only make u a more mature producer with ur musical instincts.

dont front on the fact that hip hop's most essential element is the MC.

peace

Quote - "dont front on the fact that hip hop's most essential element is the MC." Hmmmmm.........

Word, someone should have told Kool Herc and Afrika Bambaataa about that - then they wouldn't have been so mis-informed about hip hop all these years.

And how pretentious was that Grandmaster Flash - doesn't he know that he should have put his name after the furious five ? And Dondi - he should have taken an mc with him rhyming on a megaphone the whole time to the layups - then he would have been legit.

Sorry I'm being sarcastic but I can't agree with that quote - but I know what you're saying - someone once told me that you're not finished with a beat until you actually can't help but start rhyming over it in your head.

As for when an instrumental track is finished - work on it until you're happy with it, put it away and work on another one, come back to it a few weeks / months later, see what you can do with it. Listen to it in your car, get friends to comment on it etc. - feedback I guess.

And as for levels of colmplexity - I guess it depends on your style - I once read an interview with dj Krush where he said he builds his tracks up and then tries to take out of them as much as he can until he's happy with them.

Peace.

when you take a break and humming your tune and say to yourself there nothing more to add. then it is finished. there is no formula. the answer is in "YOUR" heart and soul. one bug mistake is over doing it. over doing it sounds worst than not enough. believe me.