Maschine vs MPC 4000

2KXL4life wrote:I think Jerome made some.good.points this time around and
U guys bash him for being honest he owns a mpc and machine
And admits machine is just not cutting like I wouldn't expect it too
It's a cool gimmick but its sad when people who can't afford a mpc
Buy this cheap midi controller and try to justify there purchase
By saying it kills the unit they can afford ...what ever make u happy about your
Purchase I guess .....

Many people in this forum as well the NI Forum agree with this assessment. At least the ones that don't feel the need to justify their purchase and defend it to the death.

The fact here is that all Maschine threads are continually locked in the forum. Since this is the only one that is allowed to exist, we post here. Every single comment I personally made is specifically talking about Maschine versus an MPC.(Go back to pages 3-5 how I respectfully kept it about Maschine versus MPC). That is the title of this thread and where the focus should remain. That is what people expect to find in the comparison forum. There is another forum and plenty of threads to discuss workflows.

Its true...I may be "regurgitating" the same issues I found with the initial operating systems of the MPC 1000, 2500, 4000, and 5000 as well as the MV-8000/8800. All of these devices have been significantly improved with later OS updates. There are many things about Maschine that has been untouched...as far as being written about in the forum. I will elaborate more on this over the next few weeks leading all the way up to the beta testing of OS 1.6. The goal of us Maschine users is to get NI to address its short comings so that it will one day rival and surpass what we can do with an MPC (or any other sampler). It has nothing to do with hate (I do own the product). I have not read a single post with someone claiming you can't make music with Maschine. I certainly never called it a gimmick. However, in 2010, we simply deserve a product that has the minimal functions of a modern sampling production workstation (it will soon host VST instruments and effects...yes, it is a workstation not a mere groove box..like I told some of you ). "Jahrome" beating a deadhorse (among with many others) is the reason why there is an OS 1.6 coming which will address numerous issues found in these forums.

For the record..everyone that has experience with these devices are aware of the work arounds (I remember the biggest MPC 5000 naysayer...Blue Haze..cough..cough...bashing it because it didn't initially have a full blown sampler when most of us used more powerful software samplers with the MPC 5K as our work around ). We didn't let that stop us from making music. And through continuous feedback..we got OS 2.0...as well as the JJ OS updates for MPC 1000/2500. Its a shame people hate...not making contributions to the development of these products. I am happy to be apart of the development of all these products.

If we would have simply rested and kept talking about decades old work around techniques and post silly videos..we wouldn't have the features we have today and tomorrow (again...Maschine will be a full blown workstation).

As far as the Roland MV, it does not have all the features we are talking about....I would have kept mine if it did (why didn't this collector keep this in his collection). The MV is now discontinued..for whatever reason. But you can't keep selling tools with dated technology..at least not brand new. It will continue to thrive on the second hand market...I assume.


Back to specifics about Maschine.......there are several reasons why I purchased Maschine. I purchased it sooner than I wanted to because of all the hype and untruths about how great it was. Everyone was just quoting its press releases. So I bought it to give an honest first hand assessment from the aspect of an MPC user. The second reason is that I wanted an MPC-type product without the limitations of an MPC. Maschine doesn't fit the bill yet. But with OS 1.6 on the horizon, it appears to be closing the gap.

MPC sequencer is second to none for a live bouncy feel. Individual note editing on the mpc is second to none except DAWs like Logic. MPC midi control over external instruments is on par with a DAW on a limit range 4 midi ports directly. And if you have been with an mpc over time you really come to learn the ins and out plus discover new techniques aka work arounds cuz of the very fact that you have or had limitations.


Anyway maschine chopping by duplicating and just truncating the sample start points is good and fast with no limitation on how many times I need to duplicate and edit. Except the number of pads. Copy and edit is a bit time consuming on the mpc so regions is better for the mpc. Though MV comes with this function. Patience does allow for developing the ear to listen catch a phrase on record piecemeal sample it in and fill up the pads. But nowadays most want to move quickly so automations is wanted to speed up the process. Patience can be and asset but that is just me.

Machine may have a new OS 1.6 in January or April with VSTs that is good but I'm on the fence on that as machine itself is a vst plugin unless it is on it's way to being the next Reason or something.

Maschine is a VST plug-in but I never tried to use it as such. I prefer to use it as a standalone production workstation. I had complaints about its limited MIDI capabilities which should be ease my complaints now that the upcoming OS will host VST instruments and VST effects. I can't wait to run my UAD effects through Maschine. Maschine is on its way to being the next-level MPC more than Reason which has no dedicated control surface and not too ideal for trying to sequence any external instruments.

Chopping by duplicating (copy in MPC terms) and editing and assigning them to pads is an old MPC work around. I actually preferred using the MPCs extract function for slicing and then assigning the extracted samples to pads. This method gave me the flexibility to edit them in a way to "overlap" a bit. The MPC 2000 XL (1999) was the first MPC to give us manual chopping and auto program creation. So I stopped doing the previous mentioned work arounds a decade ago. Later, the MPC 4000s (1992) use of Aksys to integrate Recycle (or other sample editors) was ahead of its time. The JJ OS (2005/2006) as well as the MPC 5000 OS 2.0 (2009) took chopping and program creation to another level that is unmatched in speed and flexibility..IMHO of course. From my experience with Mashine (as well with any software ran on a PC/Mac), if I do things too quickly, the PC won't be able to process it fast enough and can result in a program freezing or crashing. Personally, I would dedicate a PC/Mac optimized just for Maschine. As I stated before, the work-arounds for any product is what we have to live with but not blindly accept with new technologies emerging everyday. NI promises/implies that Maschine will continue to mature...so no more work-arounds. In the process of making music, I prefer not to over think things. I want to get my ideas down quickly before I lose inspiration. That is why as a samplist, I desire that NI, Roland, Yamaha, etc., to incorporate the type of sample editing the fore mentioned samplers possess.

Yeah most users wants to use maschine in standalone as mentioned before several pages back. But still you have to bring it in to a DAW to at least master it out under waves or ozone and get a good mix. No talk of the sequencer and midi editing update so that isn't a given. From what saintjoe explain the VSTs will take up the sounds slots as the sampler instruments do now under the current OS and fill the FXs the same way. This will give us VSTs yes but with the same sequencer and midi parameters. Step editor anyone?

As for sequencing external hardware I prefer hardware or my DAW.

I am still not sure which direction maschine is heading so I think it is akin to reason like unit. As far as the NI forum been saying there isn't audio tracks being planned just to keep maschine as a sampling sequencer.

Yeah the extract works well on the mpc I too actually started on the 2xl, then 3k, 1k, and 4k. Use all the others (5k & 25) in my studio thanks to the akai connections. But duplicate on maschine is hit pad press dup, hit other pad, twist knob to set start point and keep it moving. I can fly through a 16 bar sample if I want without chopping off the ends and have it play in sync. The mpc would need 16 copies and some time and work. I prefer to sample, stop the record, sample the next the keV brown way it helps my ears on the mpc.

Maschine, just like any other instrument, will eventually need to be brought into a DAW if you desire it to be mixed. I believe I can safely say most people here in these forums are not getting their music professionally (or even semi-professionally) mixed or mastered. This forum as well as the others deal mostly with pre-production talk. Only the MPC 5000 has useful audio tracks which I never use anyway. With that said, if Maschine gets it right, I will no longer have to sequence VSTs with my MPC. Still can't understand why you are talking about Reason. I guess its just a way for you to disagree with me...but that's ok. Like I mentioned numerous pages back, the development of Maschine is headed in the direction of capturing the MPC market. The next update will reportedly have the MPC-like SIMULT pad function for layering....although many of us like layering directly on the pad.

I am aware of how Maschine chops. And it is not quite like the JJ OS where you dial in the number of chops..non destructively...and automatically assigned to pads for you to tweak. It takes a fraction of a second to turn it on..no duplicating necessary...no drain on MPC resources. You may have borrowed an MPC 2500/1000 as you say, but you have certainly not used the JJ OS. If you did, I promise you will never again mention Maschine's chopping in a favorable light when comparing these products.

As far as sound slots, that is not a real concern. The way Maschine is laid out, it can give you 128 instruments/drum kits playable from an external controller which rivals/surpass an MPC. You are incorrect about there hasn't been talk about sequencer and MIDI improvements. NI made public announcements in the forum about deeper sequencer improvements..and later MIDI enhancements. Specifically, the arranger will be enhanced and we will be given an unlimited number of scenes reportedly. They are keeping additional info under wraps.

It is the same thing if you got cubuse, logic or whatever you are going to try to put a mastering plugin on your master be it Waves or Ozone if you got a DAW. I say reason as it is self contained unit that doesn`t need to be sync with a DAW to work it stays on it own if the user wishes. Of course is blends with DAWs but it isn`t quite a DAW yet.



I used them all and the most recent was a 5k. You are still talking about regions function whether JJ or akai. Still you have to go by blocks of time be it a bar, 2 bars or notes. Maschine is free it can be as small or as long as you want without setting any chops.





There are 8 groups with 16 sound slots for instruments and 8 drum kits on maschine itself. With the external controller I agree you can get more. But the sound slots also are use as aux sends and returns for external effects so the number with be reduced. Maschine will I believe be heavily coded to match with this so it will be a trial I do think. No I don`t think I made any mistakes as yes users have speculated on enhancements but a overhaul of the piano pages, automation and other parameters more akin to a DAW hasn`t been announced by NI themselves. I you can post a link I would gladly like to see it.

You would say about anything to avoid the comparison of Maschine and an MPC which is odd because you created this thread. Reason is like a DAW without audio tracks and not integrated controller. Maschine is sampling workstatison like an MPC that resides on a host computer with an integrated controller. This is why you don't see any Reason versus Maschine threads.

You used some products...I actually own these products. And I have them sitting side by side. With Maschine, you have to use the duplicate function and hit pads to assign the samples and then edit. Using JJ OS, you turn one knob and the slices are immediately mapped to as many pads as you see fit...ready for you to edits. Since you don't actually own these products like I do, you are not fully familiar with them. So I concede and won't explain it to you any further. Visit the JJ OS resource pages to see for yourself. Or visit the NI user forum to see what other users (that own Maschine and an MPC) have to say. They will probably do a better job explaining this to you.

Maschine has 8 groups with 16 sound slots (or pads). But unlike an MPC, these sound slots can be a single drum hit or it can be a keygroup sample. In simpler terms, a group can consist of a 16 pad drum kit...or the group can be a 16 drum kits with as many as 128 sounds (spread across a keygroups). That gives you 128 sounds slots to do as you like. An MPC has a 4 buss effects processor which can't be expanded any further. In fact, if you attempt to use the full power of the FXs processor, it puts a drain on the unit and it will bog down or crash. And depending on what model you are using, there are various ranges of number of tracks. Maschine can give you more effects as it currently stands and even more with the upcoming OS update. It rivals or surpasses an MPC in this regard.

I clearly stated that NI publicly promised deeper sequencer improvements (www.nativesintruments.com). This is not user speculation. It is in the NI Forum which I think you should spend some time to research yourself. That is why these forums have search functions. You will also learn more about Maschine in the process.....I have.

The feature list of OS 1.6 is projected to be released this week.........

OS 1.6 update will include the following improvements:

New and improved features:
Plugin hosting for VST/AU instruments and effects
Increased number of effect slots (3 per Sound, 4 per Group, 4 on Master)
New "Pad Link" function with 8 pad groups and Master/Slave option
Individual swing setting per sound
Clip naming
Sample renaming
Improved scene duplication
External audio input/output increased to 16 stereo channels
Improved Drag&Drop mapping for samples
Improved Drag&Drop from OS for Maschine files and audio files
Drag&Drop rearrangement of scenes and patterns
Snap-to-grid when moving events via mouse
VST plugin operation under Mac OS X 64bit
Rex import under Mac OS X 64bit

This list is subject to change, and does not necessarily list all features and fixes that will be in the final update.

The following are the features that peak my interest the most and address some of my issues with Maschine.
1. Plug-in hosting
2. Sample renaming
3. Layering via Pad Link
4. Individual swing settings per sound

My biggest complaint, Sample editing improvements, are low on NI's priority list

2KXL4life wrote:I think Jerome made some.good.points this time around and
U guys bash him for being honest he owns a mpc and machine
And admits machine is just not cutting like I wouldn't expect it too
It's a cool gimmick but its sad when people who can't afford a mpc
Buy this cheap midi controller and try to justify there purchase
By saying it kills the unit they can afford ...what ever make u happy about your
Purchase I guess ...maschine is pretty wack if u ask me

lol.

I haven't used Maschine that much yet, but I gotta say sample editing aint that bad. And when it comes to choppin, it's way nicer with Maschine. I am used to chop like this: sample, figure out the amount of chops, copy the same sound into each pad, adjust start/end individually to each pad. With XL this is pretty nice, but with Maschine it's SUPER COOL. Extremely fast and easy. Can't complain.

Psyched about the update. Great purchase.

edit. No more worries about the sample memory. 32mb vs. 2500gbs...

No product on the market does it better than this:

http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~mpc1000/os2xl/ndc.htm

Yes...every other product ain't that bad....which means not amazing either.

True.

But praising chopping / sample edit details like it's the only thing which matters is kinda naive. No matter what you wanna do with the sample, in almost every case it's a lot faster with computer. This is just a plain fact. I'm not taking any sides, I'm just being objective.

The differences between MPC and Maschine goes a bit deeper than sample edit or chopping don't you think? Also, you tend to compare Maschine's OS to JJOS and I see that misleading. Not all the MPC users use JJOS, but in fact all the Maschine users use the same OS.

There are people (like myself) who have used older MPC than 1k, and I think it's reasonable to keep the discussion in objective level rather than taking the best parts from each Akai's model and comparing them to one device.

while I get your point... comparing maschine to the 1000's worst OS is not the thing to do... in fact I will go as far as saying if it weren't for the JJOS nobody would even own a 1000... well not nearly as many I dont think.

olavi3000 wrote:True.

But praising chopping / sample edit details like it's the only thing which matters is kinda naive. No matter what you wanna do with the sample, in almost every case it's a lot faster with computer. This is just a plain fact. I'm not taking any sides, I'm just being objective.

The differences between MPC and Maschine goes a bit deeper than sample edit or chopping don't you think? Also, you tend to compare Maschine's OS to JJOS and I see that misleading. Not all the MPC users use JJOS, but in fact all the Maschine users use the same OS.

There are people (like myself) who have used older MPC than 1k, and I think it's reasonable to keep the discussion in objective level rather than taking the best parts from each Akai's model and comparing them to one device.

Good points.

Still what is being overlooked is by duplicate, pad and edit on maschine is nondestructive too as all we are doing is setting the start points to the phrases we want. JJ is great but jah own PDF shows I still have to set to either 16 or 32 points equally across the sample. On maschine is can be as long or short as I wish with as many that I need. Maybe I need only 7, 11, or 18 phrases or hits. Both are good not necessarily one is best.


By the way I'm a user not a collecter I used what I need for my workflow. Yes I own a few but at the end of the day nobody cares it really about your music. We all want to choose tools that help us compose and create great music. Each man is his own Picasso and no one gear will be one size fits all. And you can explain how it anything works all day but what is most impressive is seeing how a user works and marveling his or her music how it sounds. A lot of cats are subjective believing that everyone has to use the same gear as they use. I say to each his own. A lot of my fav producers are on 4ks, 2xl's, 3k's, even fruity loops. But even these impressive influences mean more to me are their workflows and how well I can use them in my own production with the tools I have.

Each man is his own Picasso even with an jj OS, OS 1.6, 5k or whatever one has to find their own way. If one man is very skilled at his craft like Knock, lotus, Jaizu, jdepedia, and a host if other I didn't name I feel that it is better to see how they use their tools when every tool is different. My particular tool may have more advanced features than another like latest fathom over a korg trinity but does it matter if I can't sound as good as guy banging out on mpc 2000, fruit loops, 3k, or mv8.

Everyone has to decide for themselves. My two cents.