That made me wanna back to Akai OS

Despite the issues I´ve mentioned on another threat, that audio loops (in audio track) weren't looping smoothly when I converted various sequences in a song to a single sequence, today I saw one that made me real scared about keep using JJOS as I´m over and over having different issues and I´m doing professional work.

Now I did a 30 bars song, from about 8 sequences. Converted the song to a single sequence. Exported track by track, pad by pad, to Reaper, via SPDIF, with a Kick on the first bar of every track, so I can sync manually (tab to transients and slice every track at the first transient of the kick). I do this already because I don't trust MIDI sync'ing to preserve the feel of the song as it is on the MPC.

Then I open all tracks in Protools, and start to slice the sections of the song. Then I realize that in BAR 17 and ahead, the kick starts before the start of the bar. Not just that. The kick starts sooner and sooner as the BPM was changed for a faster one. But I´m sure that I didn't any BPM change on the MPC nor on the ProTools. So, WTF can be that ? JJ can't handle more than 17 bars on a sequence ? The conversion from a song to a sequence are buggy ?

I´m on a MPC2500 with JJOSXL 1.46

I do this already because I don't trust MIDI sync'ing to preserve the feel of the song as it is on the MPC.

unnecessary, man.
mtc sync. you're not going to lose anything.
i use 16+ bars per seq all the time - EVERY time i do song to seq in fact.

crothers wrote:

I do this already because I don't trust MIDI sync'ing to preserve the feel of the song as it is on the MPC.

unnecessary, man.
mtc sync. you're not going to lose anything.
i use 16+ bars per seq all the time - EVERY time i do song to seq in fact.

Well I did a test one time, tracked the same track about 3 times and every time it became a little different one from another. Slightly different but different. I don't know if it´s audible, and perceptible comparing one track but I´m a little afraid of that, If you think of 15, 20 tracks being that little different from the original exact point where they was. But I´ll give it a try again.

Anyway, I assume that you never meant that this got anything to do with this issue, since the kick at the very first start of each track are cut exactly at the same point, I double check if the graphic is really identical and all tracks are starting at the very same point.

crothers wrote:i use 16+ bars per seq all the time - EVERY time i do song to seq in fact.

So you are using only one or two long sequences to make a song?
Interesting idea...

It would be a good idea to go back to Akai OS and do the same test.

naw, i use usually 16 bar seqs at doubletime rezo
but at the end of my song i convert it down to 1 long seq and record it into the daw.

It would be a good idea to go back to Akai OS and do the same test.

yeah. and/or have someone else confirm this in jjos.
just strikes me as weird cuz enough "pros" use jjos that they shoulda found this bug out already if it existed
but then again, i said the same thing about the "tempo change not recorded" bug.

Well it was a tricky joke coz there are incompatibilities between the akai os and JJOS2XL so there's no need to go back to akai os coz you can't do the same thing.

A part from that if it's a bug it would be worth tracking it.

I'm wondering if too many functions don't affect the MPC. Recently I've noticed that my screen was lagging and it was far from being a big project. The sound was OK though.

I dunno I've seen more and more posts complaining about JJ OS in that board recently. That's strange.

I've run similar tests on my own setup (Tascam 2488neo and MPC 1000) and have noticed the same thing. Comparing the wave forms in my daw, I can see the drums drifting slightly back and forth throughout the tracks, even when tracked out internally through the mpc. So because of this drift happening throughout the entire process, the transient sync method wouldn't help to overcome this problem (it might even make it worse). And yes, I'm using MTC. There's no difference if the MPC is set to master or slave, and very little difference using beat clock. However, I have to stress that it is a slight drift. I personally don't notice it, but your perception might be sharper than mine so it really is a subjective problem. Unlike the blatant problems, like obvious sloppy timing when mute type is set to level.

By all means run the tests on the Akai os and compare the results (you'll have to use the 2500 to test MTC though). I doubt anything will be different as I suspect it's a hardware problem to begin with, but the situation would become very interesting if the results are drastically different.

Also, something to think about: Since drifting is happening while tracking out internally through the mpc, could it be possible that drifting is happening during standard playback? Would you notice the drifting otherwise if you hadn't visually compared wave forms in a daw? You could do a blind test by comparing a tracked out version against the music coming straight out of the MPC stereo outs, as the flaws are only a problem if you can hear it. What I'm getting at is trusting your ears, and sometimes the ears of good friends. It's probably better not to obsess over a fraction of a millisecond difference in timing that you only notice when you can see it. The question is, can you hear it?

dunego wrote:I don't know if it´s audible, and perceptible comparing one track but I´m a little afraid of that, If you think of 15, 20 tracks being that little different from the original exact point where they was. But I´ll give it a try again.

If you're not sure, then you're probably not perceiving it. A flaw in the audio and groove is usually undeniable. Again, trust your ears. Don't fool yourself into thinking there is a problem when the flaws that you see on the daw are not perceivable.

Now with all that said, I'm going to stir the pot a little more. I noticed this note written in the JJOS manual at the bottom of the midi sync chapter:

JJ wrote:Please use MTC, when the device to connect supports only MTC.

Is he implying that the implementation of MTC is flawed and to only use it when that is your only option? Why would he make a suggestion like that when many of us know that MTC is a slightly better protocol than beat clock and when given the option most of us will choose MTC? Maybe I'm over thinking it, but I still think it's a statement that needs some clarification.

le rat wrote: I'm wondering if too many functions don't affect the MPC. Recently I've noticed that my screen was lagging and it was far from being a big project. The sound was OK though.

I got the same issue when I tried to load about half my 128MB RAM. I think I was at about 62MB when I could not load any more samples. I immediately purged a lot of samples, and didn't even tested the sound cause I was afraid of any damage for the MPC processor like a overclocking can cause on a computer.

crothers wrote: just strikes me as weird cuz enough "pros" use jjos that they shoulda found this bug out already if it existed
but then again, i said the same thing about the "tempo change not recorded" bug.

All rumors but I never seen any proof of any known pro that use it as the main sequencer for a beat production. Could you give examples ?

Anyway, that´s relative. When I jumped to JJ I was exited about using it as my main sequencer. Before that, I was doing just the drums on the MPC, not loading long samples, not doing too much layering. Was doing all the hard work after tracking. With JJ I started to use it as my main sequencer, loading a lot of samples, with a lot of Midi tracks controlling modules, layering drums on separate tracks. But I think JJ is buggy because it got too much functions. I don't use half the functions. I basicly use JJ for the audio track, and the grid/loop edit/view mode to control individual hits velocity and position quickly compared to step edit that was a pain in the ass. But JJ got a lot more and I almost don't use anything more. A lot of live functions. Maybe JJ could do a separate version for live users. I bough the MPC for production not for live shows.

By the way... OS2 got any of this functions (audio tracks and loop edit view mode) ? Maybe is more stable and trustable.

Ocular wrote: What I'm getting at is trusting your ears, and sometimes the ears of good friends. It's probably better not to obsess over a fraction of a millisecond difference in timing that you only notice when you can see it. The question is, can you hear it?

Yes I understand what you mean. But I didn't tested it. That´s why I said I´ll give it a try. I said I tracked the same track 3 times, a kick track, and compared the graphics. I did not tracked an entire drum section through MTC or beat clock sync, I just didn't got time at the moment and never did it again.

Anyway. That´s an entirely different issue. I´ll try to do some screenshots for yall to know what I´m talking about when I´m saying that the kick on that project starts to hit before the start of the bar, earlier at every bar after bar 17. I´m not talking about the sligh difference that I had when I tracked by MTC the same track and compared. I´m talking about HUGE position difference as the BPM was changed. I´ll test now the space between 2 kicks at the start of every bar and see if the bpm are actually changing.

Oh I see, sorry bout the misunderstanding. Let us know what's up when you're ready, hope it all works out.

unnecessary, man.
mtc sync. you're not going to lose anything.
i use 16+ bars per seq all the time - EVERY time i do song to seq in fact.

why would you even convert song to sequence anyway... just sync mtc in song mode.



It is a good idea to get that snare or kick in there with tracking into protools (only to be at exact bar/beat instead of latent bar/beat (every machine starts a little after your computer)

In addition, I think when you have more sounds than available outputs, you run the risk of being more latent on the second pass.. (your comp has to run playback audio while recording)




WHATS the DEAL with doing reaper first?




Use protools.



MTC



digi out to mpc in.



it never fails... and leave it in song mode for gods sake... conversion does not add any glory.... it just adds a step.

AND...

If you have tempo changes, set them up in protools so that they occour after the right number of bars, and your MPC will follow the tempo changes.... and furthermore... lets say you have a run out sound.... like it bleeds into the next seq.... you can stop the record pass, and put the cursor on the bar it needs to start recording at (to delete the runout sound)... and your mpc will automatically know what bar you are starting at, and start the SONG at the right sequence...


another advantage of using song mode and not conv song to seq

The Grublet wrote: why would you even convert song to sequence anyway... just sync mtc in song mode.

On my last project, I got a little gap in the audio track, everytime between one sequence to another on song mode. Despite that, I don't track 8 outs, I track stereo out, and I have to solo pads, solo tracks, one by one, so in that case is a lot more difficult to be switching from song to seq and soloing pads, and going back to song mode again. That´s maybe even another reason to not MTC sync.

The Grublet wrote:In addition, I think when you have more sounds than available outputs, you run the risk of being more latent on the second pass.. (your comp has to run playback audio while recording)

Maybe disabling the first recorded tracks can help. But like I said, I record stereo out. Even more dangerous of getting some sync issue. Maybe disabling the tracks already recorded can help. But for that and other reasons, I choose to do transient sync.

The Grublet wrote: WHATS the DEAL with doing reaper first? Use protools.

Well, maybe we got something here. This time I had to use Reaper because I used a VSTi module that wasn't working good as RTAS. And reaper runs my VSTi´s more flawlessly. If wasn't for PT editing I´d go with it all day. Well, but, there´s something I did on Reaper that can relate to the problem I´m having, but I doubt that. I recorded the stereo out of the MPC to mono summed in reaper (yes I got this option in reaper). Maybe the summing process is been done realtime and causing latency, although I´m using the option 'latency compensated'. I doubt that´s the problem, cause if was a latency issue, the kicks would be delayed, not advanced. BUT, maybe the latency compensation is done in a MTC sync style, like, being refreshed as the track goes and not calculating the overall latency after the track is recorded and fixing it ? I don't know. Anyway I´ll do the test tonight, will track everything again in PT. I just hate that I got to export everything stereo and PT ain't got a **** offline conversion to mono, so I can preserve my pre-mix channel volume relativity. But not a big problem. BTW, for that and many other reasons I´m liking reaper a lot. But, maybe reaper are doing like the JJ, too many options that it can't really deal with ? I don't know. Gonna test it.

The Grublet wrote: MTC

digi out to mpc in.

it never fails...

Interesting. I always thought that MPC would be the master to preserve the swing. At least is what everyone says. But seems like you track everything in 8 outs. That could also be interesting specially if you got a GREAT 8 channel preamp like the Auroras... I´ll get there...

Then I realize that in BAR 17 and ahead, the kick starts before the start of the bar. Not just that. The kick starts sooner and sooner as the BPM was changed for a faster one.

I did a quick test this morning

a sequence with one track with one program with one sine sample.

the sequence is 4 bars at 100 BPM with the sine trimmed in trim mode recorded at the beginning of each bars.
program settings checked properly

I've converted the sequence via song mode to be 280 bars (approximately 11 minutes)

I've recorded the result via the main out and checked in a DAW.

From what I'm seeing in my computer the MPC replays the event a little bit earlier each time.

Can someone do the same test and share his results?

Hope I did a mistake and I'm tripping