Phono Preamps... worth it?

i love 70s and early 80s amps. i have a maraantz and use the phono pre amps on that for sampling.
i also have a harmon kardon and a nakamichi.

Little update... (including audio comparison)

When I went to buy new headphones yesterday (my old sony's stopped working after 10 years). I found a a local music store with good prices and went to check them out. After i found some headphones i liked, i noticed some phono preamps that were on display in the store...

So i started talking to the guy in the store about the phono preamps... and he ends up lending me one of them so i could compare it for myself at home (for free).

I tried this amp for a few hours now, always switching forth and back with my own amp. The real difference i could make out is that the dedicated phono pre really improved the "soundstage". It's like listening to good studio monitors for the first time... you suddenly can hear more details, you can hear better where an instrument sits in the mix, you hear more detailed lows, etc. The sound isn't really more "powerful" or spectacular, but it becomes more detailed, more honest.

I don't think i'm going to buy this preamp (i can keep it two weeks and give it back if i don't want it), even tho it's a clear step into the right direction in my opinion.
I want to see if i can find a few more that i can try out in my setup and compare them. I have a feeling there's maybe something better out there for less money than this particular one would cost (around 300 euro).
The problem with old hi-fi equipment here in switzerland is that you still pay a lot for it usually. There's a lot of thrift stores who are selling old amps and stuff, they have lists online with prices... "cheap" (refurbished) amps are going for around 200 - 1'000 bucks. So phono preamps start at about the same price i'd pay for an old marantz/revox/technics/whatever amp.

Anyway... i've made two recordings with the 2000XL for direct comparison for anybody who cares to check it out (i advise listening to them with some monitor speakers or a pair of halfway decent headphones).

Example 1:
http://www.mediafire.com/?43dp667m7xc2fgo

Example 2:
http://www.mediafire.com/?b5mbm9ibuynupm5

The song i used for comparison is called "I believe to my soul" performed by Donny Hathaway, written by Ray Charles. Both examples are recorded with the same turntable and cartridge (sl1210MKII and shure VN35E). They are cut off because of the 32MB ram limitation of the 2kxl. I saved them as wave files on the MPC and uploaded them to mediafire without any editing on the mpc or computer. Both wave files are at about the same level (had to lower the rec gain on the mpc for the phono preamp).
I just had a listen to both files. I'm not sure but i think it sounds better when you just "listen" through the mpc compared to a recorded sample from the mpc (after it gets converted to a 16bit wave file by the mpc). Still, the example with the phono preamp sounds better to me... listen and focus on how the instruments stand more apart in one recording (the bass, snares, hi-hats, voices) and how they are more "mashed together" in the other.

My own amp is a Yamaha AX-397


The Phono Pre is a Vincent PHO-8


I won't tell right now which example is the phono preamp and which one is my own amp... it would be cool to see what other people think sounds better first.

PS: You should simply compare audible differences in the recording, not overall quality, since i might need a new needle for the turntable sometime...

I'm no authority, these are just my observations. I find that DONNY01 sounded much more open and musical. I know that those terms are thrown around often and are subjective and vague, so I'll try to elaborate. These are only the way I interpret their meanings though. By musical I mean that instruments sounded clearer and more appealing (timbre wise), bouncier, sonically richer and less compressed in 01. This made it seem a lot more articulate. By open I mean that the instruments sounded clearly more separate, there didn't seem to be as much of a veil underneath the recording as compared to DONNY02 and the frequencies seemed better represented. Whereas the DONNY02 recording sounded dull, lacking harmonics, muted and a bit noisy (cloudy) and compressed in comparison. The high end in 02 was brittle sounding, whereas on the 01 recording it becomes obvious that the hi-hat, tambourine, snare, piano and the vocal have a lot more brilliance. 02 also seemed narrower from left to right, as if pinched. 02 also sounds more distorted and a bit quieter, despite matched peak values. Oddly, it sounds like I can hear a spring reverb (on the lead vocal) in 02 that seems less present in 01, probably due to the former sounding more compressed. Though that may seem like an obvious preference when written, there isn't a great or significant enough improvement, to me either, between them that I'd purchase one or the other though.

I tried to ignore your scratchy recording as requested though.
I hope 01 is the higher priced one, if not...shame on them.

In case it matters, I loaded them in a DAW and volleyed between the two...listening on headphones and monitors.

awesome update, thanks.

i think the difference between a dedicated pre-amp and a receiver/amp combo would be pretty noticeable...those receivers are multi-function units whereas the pre is designed for one purpose only; the receiver probably has more circuitry for the signal to pass through and potentially color it, not to mention maybe built-in eq or fx, whereas the preamp is a very simple circuit.

i imagine the difference between a $300 preamp and $1 preamp might be a little less drastic than the diff between a dedicated pre and a receiver.
keep using your receiver if it works for you...a little sound coloration never hurt nobody. one day you might come across a good preamp.

Changing your needle first would probs make a bigger difference..

Imo for sound quality that Shure is pretty garbage and I don't really see the point in fancy dedicated phono pre's if all you are using is a 44-7'

Garbage in garbage out, it's a jukebox needle from the 50's which later got adapted for the turntableist market, it's good at that but I can't stand listening to them

Errm edit forget that, for some reason I thought you used a 44-7 lol

I don't know if $300 range phono-amp is necessary for sampling, but I wouldn't call it waste of money. You will hear a big difference if you enjoy playing vinyls. I would go for $100 range phono-amp. Don't buy Grado PH-1, that one is just a cheap op-amp phono-amp in nice wood casing. Audio-Technica AT-PEQ3 or Bellari VP29 would be sufficient for the purpose, I think.

I use a custom made phono-amp that has a headphone output. (It sounds great, but it is cheaper to buy a phono-amp than make one for yourself!) Before that, I was using cheap Vestax DJ mixer (which does not sound bad, but it is not great neither, does not exactly provide "detailed" sound) that I bought more than 10 years ago.

Cheap turntable get you a lot of noise from motor and hums, but since you have SL-1200 Mr2, you don't have to worry about it.

Good pre-amps are properly grounded, means that it is very quiet (no hums, no ground loop) when it is not playing.
If you record (rip) your vinyl collection, it is a good investment to have a good phono-amp.

(maybe unrelated, but) my suggestions:
1. (cannot do this with MPC-2000XL, but) Always record in 24-bit whenever you can (sample rate is not that important compared to bit rate). It is much better to record in 24-bit, then convert to 16-bit.
2. Use the thick rubber mat that came with SL-1200 Mk2, instead of slip mat. Your vinyl sound better on rubber mat (Improves bass sound especially. It is not myth, try it for yourself.)

There are some phono pre-amp stages that make a huge difference, this was just not one of them, to me. I wouldn't buy it. I think the purity of the signal also depends on the rest of your chain and how you conduct your listening tests also though.

Yeah, i thought aswell there must be better ones out there. I'll not buy this one.
You were right by the way, DONNY01 is the phono preamp.

@JVC
I will do another comparison this weekend. I have an Apogee Duet audio interface that i use together with Logic Express. I'll record another two examples with that instead of the MPC. I simply used the MPC because that's what i normally use to record my samples... maybe i should record them in Logic anyway (except for drums). After listening to both recordings on my computer, i had a feeling the MPC doesn't do justice to the signal for a real comparison.

I already use the thick rubber mat that came with the SL1210 by the way, for the exact reasons you mentioned.

I don't know how easy it'll be (probably rather hard), but i'll try to get more phono pre's that i can compare. If i manage to do so, i'll report back with further updates.

As i said, i'm not going to buy this one before making further comparisons... however, i'm determined to find a good phono pre (and probably a better cartridge) now that i've heard the difference. To me the difference in sound detail is quite a big deal. Just thinking how much better drums are going to sound, or filtered basslines, etc. makes me not want to go back to my own amp.