MPC Vs. Maschine mini Review

Askia Shaheed wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:
I ordered inclined wood panels for Maschine which it will give it the slight advantage the MPC 2000 does. But all in all, I would prefer if a new Maschine controller had an adjustable LCD.

I have more....

But I have to watch SVU now.

one other thing you can do with the 2000 classic that helps is.. you can do shift+jog as you know which can darken the font.. well from angles you can adjust it to see fine without the mpc on a tilted surface.

it is no way as good as say the xl's tilt but it is fine.

Askia Shaheed wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:
4. I actually dig the new sequencing method. I hated it at first and was like WTF, why?! But once I grasped the concept and how easy it was to just duplicate and edit patterns and scenes, the more I liked it!

1. What is there to dig? I can't find a single reason why I like Maschine's sequencer.

2. I hope it doesn't take 3 years to give Maschine some of the basic functions I mentioned. But I have more which I will write about....such as the controller doesn't have complete control over the software. Some functions you can only access using the mouse.

3. Then there is the way menus function. It is annoying to hold down a button make changes to certain parameters...or using a "lock" to stay in a menu. Some menus have a lock and other don't. Just keep it simple. Press a menu button once...and the menu opens and stays open. Press it again and it closes.

4. Also, when it comes to programming sounds it is not as user friendly as an MPC. MPCs program mode has tabs dedicated for specific parameters (Filters/LFO, Amps, etc). You can quickly get to a parameter you need. Maschine's hardware has a left and right cursor button used to click through the 4 different parameter pages. Not a big deal? But a tab to take you directly to the set of parameters you want to edit (like an MPC) is more ideal.

5. Layer sounds on a pad is easier on an MPC. Although the MPC 4000 is the only MPC that gives you independent parameters for each layer. Simult is simpler on an MPC. Pick a pad and assign 2-4 (depending on which MPC) samples this pad will trigger. Maschine you have to pick a pad and assign it to a Link (Simult) group. This is ok. But there is no way you can quickly tell which samples/pads are assigned to a link group.

6. ...the controller.....just like the MPC 2000, 1000 and Maschine...I really dislike LCD screens I can not adjust. With Maschine and the MPC 1000, I propped them up using a lap top stand. Other times I just sit Maschine in my lap and propped up by the edge of my desk. I ordered inclined wood panels for Maschine which it will give it the slight advantage the MPC 2000 does. But all in all, I would prefer if a new Maschine controller had an adjustable LCD.

1. For one, it's mad easy to just duplicate a pattern and or scene/sequence and make changes on the fly without stopping the beat. On the MPC, although it gives you more flexibility, you have to stop the beat, go to a menu, select what you want to copy, move, etc, select a bar length, and some other shit just to do the same thing. On Maschine I just copy/duplicate a whole pattern at the press of a button and edit out what I don't want in the pattern or add something extra. And it's also easy to swap out patterns within a sequence to see if another pattern you made might sound better with a certain sequence. It's just quicker.

2. Same here on the update times. However, some things are just way quicker to do when you have the mouse. I'd rather do them that way. Like editing single note velocity and timing. It's so much quicker to just do it with the mouse than it is to do it from step edit in the MPC. Also, Maschine allows you to shift click and adjust only some of the note hits. With the MPC, you either have to tweak one at a time, tweak notes that are adjacent, or tweak them all.

3. I don't get what you mean by this. Button 1 above the left LCD locks the menu, which allows you to press a menu button to open it, and press it again (or any other menu button) to close it. The only menu that doesn't have a lock is the select button, which I have no idea why. Everything that menu does is something I do with the mouse anyway.

4. I don't think there's much difference. On Maschine's main screen you make sure the modules button is selected, press the right arrow twice and you're at the filter screen. With the MPC, you go into the program menu, then you have to hit the program button do the the same thing. Sure the MPC has most of the params on one screen, but you still have to cursor through them, which is pretty much the same as Maschines arrow cursors. So I don't really think either has an advantage on this one.

5. Yeah, this one is easier on MPC. But again for me, I never use the Simul feature on the MPC to layer. I always lay my drum layers manually because I like give them a slightly shifted timing than the drum it's layering. Also, the individual parameter controls you mentioned too. Alternatively to manually relaying the layer, I copy the original to a new track, transpose the notes to play the layer pad, then tweak the timing and parameters. This alternate method is much quicker on Maschine though because you can paste the copied notes directly to the layer sound without having to go to a menu to transpose it. And you don't have to stop the sequencer.

6. Hell yeah. That shit KILLS your neck. That was the main thing I hated about the 1000. But like you said, for the Maschine, I got the tilted wood panels from the dude on eBay. Makes a hell of a difference!

DJ Hellfire wrote:
1. For one, it's mad easy to just duplicate a pattern and or scene/sequence and make changes on the fly without stopping the beat. On the MPC, although it gives you more flexibility, you have to stop the beat, go to a menu, select what you want to copy, move, etc, select a bar length, and some other **** just to do the same thing. On Maschine I just copy/duplicate a whole pattern at the press of a button and edit out what I don't want in the pattern or add something extra. And it's also easy to swap out patterns within a sequence to see if another pattern you made might sound better with a certain sequence. It's just quicker.

2. Same here on the update times. However, some things are just way quicker to do when you have the mouse. I'd rather do them that way. Like editing single note velocity and timing. It's so much quicker to just do it with the mouse than it is to do it from step edit in the MPC. Also, Maschine allows you to shift click and adjust only some of the note hits. With the MPC, you either have to tweak one at a time, tweak notes that are adjacent, or tweak them all.

3. I don't get what you mean by this. Button 1 above the left LCD locks the menu, which allows you to press a menu button to open it, and press it again (or any other menu button) to close it. The only menu that doesn't have a lock is the select button, which I have no idea why. Everything that menu does is something I do with the mouse anyway.

4. I don't think there's much difference. On Maschine's main screen you make sure the modules button is selected, press the right arrow twice and you're at the filter screen. With the MPC, you go into the program menu, then you have to hit the program button do the the same thing. Sure the MPC has most of the params on one screen, but you still have to cursor through them, which is pretty much the same as Maschines arrow cursors. So I don't really think either has an advantage on this one.

5. Yeah, this one is easier on MPC. But again for me, I never use the Simul feature on the MPC to layer. I always lay my drum layers manually because I like give them a slightly shifted timing than the drum it's layering. Also, the individual parameter controls you mentioned too. Alternatively to manually relaying the layer, I copy the original to a new track, transpose the notes to play the layer pad, then tweak the timing and parameters. This alternate method is much quicker on Maschine though because you can paste the copied notes directly to the layer sound without having to go to a menu to transpose it. And you don't have to stop the sequencer.

6. Hell yeah. That **** KILLS your neck. That was the main thing I hated about the 1000. But like you said, for the Maschine, I got the tilted wood panels from the dude on eBay. Makes a hell of a difference!

1. Which MPC are you using? Because not all MPCs are created equal. With the newer models....you don't have to stop the sequence doing the tasks you wrote about above with the exception of the load/save menu. But I agree. I do like doing flying around a machine without stopping the sequencer.

2. While some things may be better with a mouse, not having complete control of the software from the controller is annoying to me. I want the option of using a mouse or the hardware. This is one of my top feature requests for Maschine.

As far as tweaking multiple notes at a time..while it may be useful in certain situations, I personally never needed this. An MPCs sequencer is so tight, I get the results a need normally the first or second time around. Never needed to pick out several notes and adjust them to the same velocity.....but the MPC 5000 does this..I suspect the MPC 4000 as well. I am not sure about the MPC 2500/1000.

3. Yes, I am talking about using button 1 to lock different menus. NI needs to get rid of this. Its a waste. Presee SCENE button, I should be able to stay in this mode without having to press another button to lock or unlock it. This is not a necessary function in my opinion. You may like the mouse but there are users that don't. As I pointed out, I want complete control of the software from the hardware.

4. No its not exactly the same. While I would love an MPC to have dedicated knobs to adjust parameters on the screen, the data wheel and cursor keys is an acceptale alternative. And it easy to use the cursor keys. I am guessing NI realized this as well when they built the Micro. So while I do give Maschine a +1 for dedicated knobs, the menu implementation can me improved. Maschine has sof buttons/tabs for many functions. They can sure add them for basic editing functions. This is not a deal breaker for me, I just think an improvement in the area would benefit users.

5. Work arounds great. But better drum layering is a must. Maschine doesn't give you want an MPC does in this regard.

6. We both agree on one thing.

Maschine is a quite capable product. Love the concept. 1.6/1.7 made me re-evaluate my first impression. Re-designing the controller in a Version 2 product would help sell me on it.

Askia Shaheed wrote:

Metatron72 wrote:
Askia, why don't you just sell the damn thing.

Then how could I write a review if I don't own it?

I just get the the sense you're not feeling the product overall. Your issues with it's shortcomings are totally valid. Personally I don't need it to match an MPC on every front, specifically sampling. I've used Recycle hardcore for years, so I only sample or chop in Maschine like 25% of the time. But again, your 100% right that it could easily be be improved to already established feature standards. And it needs to have a certain completeness of features for full viability.

Don't ask me how, but your whole hardcore approach to gear and sharing your findings here slipped my mind for second. Of course you're gonna hold on to it to see what happens going forward. Sorry for losing track of the obvious man.

it's the classic case of "why doesn't this product have every single feature every one of my previous products had since it's newer?" combined with "I dont know how to use more then one piece of gear at a time, so I refuse to combine the best features from several machines working in tandem"

I mean, we all love cool features... but when do you draw the line and use what you got to get the job done?

Askia Shaheed wrote:3. Yes, I am talking about using button 1 to lock different menus. NI needs to get rid of this. Its a waste. Presee SCENE button, I should be able to stay in this mode without having to press another button to lock or unlock it. This is not a necessary function in my opinion. You may like the mouse but there are users that don't. As I pointed out, I want complete control of the software from the hardware.

uhmmm what you overlook in my opinion is that in certain cases, mostly live performances, this behaviour is really appreciated.
i.e.: i'm playing a scene but i want to switch the drum part on the fly, i press pattern and pad 2, release pattern and i'm immediately ready to tweak whatever parameter i was tweaking before the jump. but, if i'm in the mood of some hardcore pattern remixing, i can pin the pattern page and go heavy on the pads to remix my scene on the fly! this is super useful in a live situation and i hope NI wouldn't follow your suggestion!

this kind of tricks is exactly what i was missing when doing livesets on the mpc. jj took care of some in his operating system , but maschine brings this all to a next level. people has to aknowledge that maschine isn't an mpc replacement but a new paradigm of music production workstation AND groovebox. tons of his features come directly from the mpc world, but others don't , and i think this is a KILLER mix of workflows.

mr_debauch wrote:it's the classic case of "why doesn't this product have every single feature every one of my previous products had since it's newer?" combined with "I dont know how to use more then one piece of gear at a time, so I refuse to combine the best features from several machines working in tandem"

I mean, we all love cool features... but when do you draw the line and use what you got to get the job done?

And you are some what correct. But my main focus is "standards." The are certain standard functions I expect a sampler to accomplish..expecially one that is software like Maschine. The same argument you are trying to make was being made when Maschine 1.0 was released. Now 1.7 is out and along the way, NI added many of the functions people griped about.

Metatron72 wrote:Don't ask me how, but your whole hardcore approach to gear and sharing your findings here slipped my mind for second. Of course you're gonna hold on to it to see what happens going forward. Sorry for losing track of the obvious man.

lol

The first time I bought Maschine was because there were a ton of Maschine threads here and no one was really giving honest assessments. They were here defending their purchase. So I bought it to give an accurate account from a long time MPC user perspective. After my review, I sold it for cheap and only repurchased it to see what OS 1.7 is all about. I try to talk only about gear and software that I actually own/owned.

@hyena
Disregard what I wrote about the annoying Lock. It appears its a non-issue for me as I locked all the modes. When I re-launch Maschine, it remembers that I locked all the buttons. So now it behaves exactly the way I expect it to. I can hit Pattern button and it wil stay in Pattern until I hit the Pattern button a second time or hit another button such as Pad Mode. Doing the lattern Maschine quickly takes me from Pattern to Pad Mode without any issues.

@ jahrome: that's it

Askia Shaheed wrote:The first time I bought Maschine was because there were a ton of Maschine threads here and no one was really giving honest assessments. They were here defending their purchase.

Rewind the tape few yrs back Mr.Jahrome...and you might see a reflection of yourself...

hyena wrote:@ jahrome: that's it

No. I have more. Stay tuned.

Askia Shaheed wrote:1. Which MPC are you using? Because not all MPCs are created equal. With the newer models....you don't have to stop the sequence doing the tasks you wrote about above with the exception of the load/save menu. But I agree. I do like doing flying around a machine without stopping the sequencer.

3. Yes, I am talking about using button 1 to lock different menus. NI needs to get rid of this. Its a waste. Presee SCENE button, I should be able to stay in this mode without having to press another button to lock or unlock it. This is not a necessary function in my opinion. You may like the mouse but there are users that don't. As I pointed out, I want complete control of the software from the hardware.

1. I use the 2500. Also have an XL. And on both of them, other than adjusting params and pad volume or add effects, the only thing you can do while the sequencer is playing is record. You can't adjust swing. You can't adjust recorded note timing. You can't make step edits. You can't copy/paste notes. You can't chop. You can't change the amount of bars your sequence is. You can't set up a song mode, etc. On the 2500, you can trim samples while the sequencer plays, but you can't zoom in on the sample, and every adjustment you make makes the sequencer skip. And that's with JJOS. Don't know if you can even do that on Akai OS.

3. You're still losing me on this one. What you are saying you want it to do is what it can do. I locked all my menus once when I first got it and never had to relock them again. For example, if I press the Scene button, it stays in the Scene menu until I press Scene again to exit. Or you can press any other button to exit the window. Don't really see it necessary for them to get rid of being able to lock or unlock menus. They have this as an option because it works well for people who use it live.

But yeah, after reading up on 1.5, I would have hated Maschine if it weren't for 1.7.


EDIT: Disregard my #3 reply as I see you and Hyena worked it out!

DJ Hellfire wrote:

1. I use the 2500. Also have an XL. And on both of them, other than adjusting params and pad volume or add effects, the only thing you can do while the sequencer is playing is record. You can't adjust swing. You can't adjust recorded note timing. You can't make step edits. You can't copy/paste notes. You can't chop. You can't change the amount of bars your sequence is. You can't set up a song mode, etc. On the 2500, you can trim samples while the sequencer plays, but you can't zoom in on the sample, and every adjustment you make makes the sequencer skip. And that's with JJOS. Don't know if you can even do that on Akai OS.

3. You're still losing me on this one. What you are saying you want it to do is what it can do. I locked all my menus once when I first got it and never had to relock them again. For example, if I press the Scene button, it stays in the Scene menu until I press Scene again to exit. Or you can press any other button to exit the window. Don't really see it necessary for them to get rid of being able to lock or unlock menus. They have this as an option because it works well for people who use it live.

But yeah, after reading up on 1.5, I would have hated Maschine if it weren't for 1.7.


EDIT: Disregard my #3 reply as I see you and Hyena worked it out!

1. I can see this is important to you. Most of what you need here is possible with the MPC 5000 if I recall correctly. Maschine has a leg up on other MPCs in this regard. But the features of Maschine that you can use while the sequencer is running is mostly substandard when compared to an MPC. MPC swing, Step/Event List Editor, Sample Chopping, Sample/Program/Sequence/Track/Song structure, etc are much better (in my opinion) using an MPC than Maschine.

Top feature requests from the NI Forum:
1. Timestretch/pitchshifting
2. Full MIDI capabilities
3. Record Mute and Solo automations
4. Snap to zero for sample editing
5. Better EQ/Filters
6. Sample playhead marker (JJ OS)
7. Sample Tempo Detect (MPC 2000/2000XL)
8. MPC styled pad banks (can't easily access >16 slices without using up groups)
9. Sample Editing pad play modes
10. Loop lock
11. Save individual groups/drum kits
12. Edit note length from controller
13. Direct disk browsing from hardware
14. Note repeat for external keyboard controller
15. Mixer
16. Bar/Beat counter in software
17. Customize metronome
18. Tempo changes
19. Vertical zoom
20. ADSR not effected by changing scenes and patterns
21. Audio tracks

Notice that all of these are MPC features.....and not that an MPC is perfect. I can/have come up with a full page of things I would like to see improved on an MPC/MV. But most of what I have come up with would be a big Maschine improvement as well.

Askia Shaheed wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:

1. I use the 2500. Also have an XL. And on both of them, other than adjusting params and pad volume or add effects, the only thing you can do while the sequencer is playing is record. You can't adjust swing. You can't adjust recorded note timing. You can't make step edits. You can't copy/paste notes. You can't chop. You can't change the amount of bars your sequence is. You can't set up a song mode, etc. On the 2500, you can trim samples while the sequencer plays, but you can't zoom in on the sample, and every adjustment you make makes the sequencer skip. And that's with JJOS. Don't know if you can even do that on Akai OS.

3. You're still losing me on this one. What you are saying you want it to do is what it can do. I locked all my menus once when I first got it and never had to relock them again. For example, if I press the Scene button, it stays in the Scene menu until I press Scene again to exit. Or you can press any other button to exit the window. Don't really see it necessary for them to get rid of being able to lock or unlock menus. They have this as an option because it works well for people who use it live.

But yeah, after reading up on 1.5, I would have hated Maschine if it weren't for 1.7.


EDIT: Disregard my #3 reply as I see you and Hyena worked it out!

1. I can see this is important to you. Most of what you need here is possible with the MPC 5000 if I recall correctly. Maschine has a leg up on other MPCs in this regard. But the features of Maschine that you can use while the sequencer is running is mostly substandard when compared to an MPC. MPC swing, Step/Event List Editor, Sample Chopping, Sample/Program/Sequence/Track/Song structure, etc are much better (in my opinion) using an MPC than Maschine.

Top feature requests from the NI Forum:
1. Timestretch/pitchshifting
2. Full MIDI capabilities
3. Record Mute and Solo automations
4. Snap to zero for sample editing
5. Better EQ/Filters
6. Sample playhead marker (JJ OS)
7. Sample Tempo Detect (MPC 2000/2000XL)
8. MPC styled pad banks (can't easily access >16 slices without using up groups)
9. Sample Editing pad play modes
10. Loop lock
11. Save individual groups/drum kits
12. Edit note length from controller
13. Direct disk browsing from hardware
14. Note repeat for external keyboard controller
15. Mixer
16. Bar/Beat counter in software
17. Customize metronome
18. Tempo changes
19. Vertical zoom
20. ADSR not effected by changing scenes and patterns
21. Audio tracks

Notice that all of these are MPC features.....and not that an MPC is perfect. I can/have come up with a full page of things I would like to see improved on an MPC/MV. But most of what I have come up with would be a big Maschine improvement as well.

Word! Definitely, #8 was my biggest aggravation with Maschine at first. Then I figured out once you go into the Pad Mode screen, buttons 7 and 8 cycle to/through your >16 slices. But still, the MPC has the advantage here, because while you can easily scroll through all the chops on Maschine, it's still easy to get lost and not know how far you've scrolled from the first 16 chops. With pad banks, it's easy to see, or even remember what bank you are currently in.

#5, they probably won't do this, or at least make it a priority, since you can add any VST you want which you could do this with.

#6 DEFINITELY!!!

#11, what do you mean? Unless, I'm not understanding you, Maschine can do this. Or are you saying from the controller you should be able to do this?

#19 DEFINITELY!!!

DJ Hellfire wrote:#11, what do you mean? Unless, I'm not understanding you, Maschine can do this. Or are you saying from the controller you should be able to do this?

Not me. This is from the NI Forum. But yes. Being able to do everything from the controller is ideal. But as far as I am concerned, this isn't a big deal.

pretty much what hellfire said is dead on:

my biggest gripes with maschine are:

1.no panic button or way to stop sounds using the controller (like on mpc pressing stop 3 times) this is big deal for us "choppers" especially when you load up long ass samples, and are hitting pads quickly adjusting start points rapidly. THIS SHOULD BE THE FIRST **** THING NI FIXES. ITS HUGE FEATURE FOR US MPC TO MASCHINE USERS.

2.tap tempo does not work while auditioning pads - it sucks because you have to use shift + note repeat. this becomes a problem because if you are trying to tempo out a loop on a pad, you have to let go of shift+note repeat then press the pad each time you want it to loop around. if you continue to hold shift + note repeat, then hit a pad you will accidently execute a function short cut on a pad. if you are like me, i like to freestyle pads and use tap tempo simaltaneiously to see what tempo my groove is. for example i might substitute the tap tempo button on the mpc for my snare and freestyle my drum pattern using the pads and the tap tempo - you cant do that on maschine THIS CAN BE FIXED BY MAKING TAP TEMPO LOCKABLE

3.can't load standard .midi files to maschine. that means my old mpc sequence's won't work, unless i do some wanky work around using maschine as a vst, dragging .midi to my DAW and then recording into maschine (basically a pain in the ass)

4. no bulk editing of pads. you can only edit 1 pad at a time, or only edit its group, you can't select several pads and only edit those. I do this alot for tuning. say i have a sample assigned to only 7 pads, i want to select those 7 pads adjust the tuning. if i change the tuning of the group, it effects all 16 pads, thats not good if i only want to effect those 7 pads. no ctrl+click pad to edit them in bulk this isn't a deal breaker, but i think it would be cool if NI implemented

5. cant set parameters on pads without a sample loaded to it. i get it, but on the mpc you could. this is important for things like creating blank pads, adding them to choke groups, and using them to cut off samples. now i have to load a blank sample to workaround. not a deal breaker, but kind of annoying as i never realized how much i used this on the mpc until i started using maschine.



I STILL THINK AKAI COULD MAKE AN MPC + SOFTWARE COMBO like maschine, but more mpc style with the mpc paradigm (tracks, pgm, sequences) - basically porting everything jjos has, adding all the great advantages of computer software and really kicking ass!!!

If i could get #1,#2,#3 fixed - it would be awesome.