about hardware that commminucate with pc (maschine, mpc ren)

i ve never played with a maschine, and i would like to ask what are the benefits of making a hardware devince that runs on the pc at once with its dedicated software. i mean all mpcs, with midi in/out and multiple outs, can fully integrate with every DAW for years now. so why buy a machine or a mpc ren or a hardware like that.

i came here to post pretty much the same question word for word.
i do not understand how my MPC could be more integrated with a DAW other than sharing the same sequencer. i don't see the benefit of that. i'd like to hear your input on what these things can do.

i feel like JJOS2XL "button mode" might have poked a big hole in the virtual workstation balloon.

so far i've heard a lot about vsts, mapping, etc, but i can already do all of that...?

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other than, of course, screen size. monitor being larger than any MPC screen.

the concept of 'plug this into that' - when its not usb - is actually very foreign to a lot of people.

a 1/4" cable can be plugged in so many wrong ways and people dont really care to learn, they just want to hit the make beat button, so these integrated solutions keep popping up.

i agree with yall though, its integrated just fine for me, and even much more flexible this way.

Deep and tight integration.

With LCD and custom non-MIDI protocol it is possible to use the controller hardware without even needing a mouse, keyboard, or video display. Basically, it could feel like hardware MPC workflow, but with modern PC specs, and bonus of option to dive into PC GUI for tweaks and management that's easier with big display, mouse or touch, and keyboard.

But... that's just theory. I bet they didn't design them to utilize full potential. Still, they probably have deeper integration than generic MIDI controller.

MIDI is just one of many protocols, which is very limited. The reason why some controllers can do things like show track names on LCDs is because they use expanded protocols, like Mackie Control's HUI protocol. But for DAW software to be able to integrate with controller hardware, they both need to speak the same protocol.

For deep MPC integration, with full control of LCD with data wheel and all, a DAW cannot speak the language to tell it what to display, or know what unique inputs mean. So they program a custom solution, and it could be basically the same as what a hardware MPC is, but using software instead of firmware, and external PC instead of internal embedded microprocessor.

so basically you're telling me that the benefit is that track names will appear on both the MPC screen and the monitor?

one legitimate benefit would be tracking out to a (real) DAW, you could do it at one pass.

but screen size doesnt see to me like a benefit. music is to be heard not seen. large screens arent always a benefit, think of this, for some reason when we liaten to music from youtube, we tend to stare to the screen without reason. thats why i dont like all these blinking lights they put on the new devices, they distract you visually. of course all this is just personal opoinion everybody has their own preferences..


as with the integraiton lets say with fl studio and a mpc 2000..you can combine not only the two sequencers, but you can assign let's say your kicks in stereo out 1, and this to mixer track 1 in fl, and apply up to 8 vst effects..same for the snare, and so on...i can't see what could anybody possibly want..

even the most badass mpc/mpd virtuosos do fine with just an mpc..an interesting idea with the controllers in my opinion was the padcontrol, very smart idea indeed, but i didnt see people do anything spectacular with it...i want to say all this "everything can be linked to everything" and "tracks name should be displayed on the midi controller too" is just an instistence, the difference made is not even listenable, technology doesnt push music forward anymore. i want musical instruments to be made, not flashy gadgets.

in the end of the day, all producers just sample, chop, pitch up/down and filter/eq. or make baslines out of sine basses lfos and distortions, and tweak presets. that's what everyone does, and as im not an experienced beatmaker, i havent understood where all this features-paranoia is standing for.

has there ever been a most innovative device created since the first mpc? that actually was a musical instrument and pushed so many creativity and helped form 100 different styles and genres? no.

simplicity is the key. i think companies have run out of ideas and just improve and improve specs and boost everything with more features, but from one point and beyond this is completely useless.

Track names is just the start; what about visual drum grid editing on the LCD? With an MPD using MIDI to interface with DAW you need to look at the PC GUI display, and edit with mouse. With MPC Ren, in theory, you could turn off PC display and edit exactly like you do on MPC 1000.

thanks for playing.

With MPC Ren, in theory, you could turn off PC display and edit exactly like you do on MPC 1000.

so...in theory, why not edit exactly like you do on an MPC1000??
we already HAVE visual grid editing on the LCD. what's new here?

Jamon wrote: With MPC Ren, in theory, you could turn off PC display and edit exactly like you do on MPC 1000.

Here are my two cents...may chip in a dollar later...

Integration:
The biggest benefit I see with products like Maschine and the MPC Ren, is that you have dedicated hardware completely integrated with software that resides on your computer. The integration I am talking about is so deep, you don't have to pick up your keybord or mouse. That gives you virtually unlimited resources in terms of CPU power and RAM.

While JJ OS and the Akai OS2 for the MPC 5000 can integrate with software via MIDI CC, that don't offer the ability to map auto map VST parameters to their knobs/sliders like these new hybrids. This is a huge time saver. And since these products actually host the VSTs, are you settings are saved. VST is much tighter than using typical MIDI. Sample accurate syncing.....no more issues.


Tracking:
With MPCs, you have to track into a DAW with up to 10 analog outputs. You may have to do multiple passes. With software on a computer, you can record numerous tracks in once pass.

Program Editing:
People have used MPC Progran Editors for years. Now Maschine and the new MPC can do this without the need for 3rd party software.

The big change is that the computing is outsourced to the PC.

It used to be, that to edit video, you needed dedicated hardware that did nothing but edit video. Companies had to design and manufacturer that hardware, which was costly. Each year to keep up with advancing technologies, new machines had to be created, which meant a lot of work because each one had all the internal eletronics it needed to work on its own.

To edit audio, the same, first with tape, then with digital and embedded electronics. For video games, the same, from arcades to home systems. Even listening to music, was done on dedicated devices with embedded chips acting as the "brain" of electronics.

But now, since the Personal Computer revolution, there are generic brains everywhere. Instead of needing someone to use niche kits that require learning all the specialties of how to program for it, and designing an expensive dedicated unit, they can outsource the deep "brain" stuff to the PC, and focus on the app.

Now video, audio, games, and more are all moved to the PC. Instead of a very small team of dedicated engineers, we have a huge landscape of connected developers and users. This has several advantages, from lowering cost, to speeding up development, to giving users more choice and power to customize their tools.

There's disadvantage to this too. It's possible to get tighter efficiency in a dedicated system built specifically for one purpose that will never change. This means, if you build a drum machine and design it tight, you can get low-latency performance that is impossible today with a PC. It's because the PC is too generic, having to go through lots of extra steps, to be all things to all people.

Another disadvantage is portability. You can unplug a dedicated drum machine and take it with you anywhere, and it's all self-contained. A good example of when this is important is with cameras. We have USB cameras that can plug into a PC, where it's mostly just the light sensor, and the PC does the rest. Yet, most people don't want to carry a PC outside to snap a pic of a kitty. So, digital cameras are mostly still built as small dedicated devices, that have the processing, memory, storage, display, controls, and OS all built in.

But look at the situation we're in with the MPC firmware. Although there's advantages to it being self-contained, it's too niche, and Akai dropped the ball, so instead we rely on a rogue developer. People praise JJOS, and compared to AkaiOS it's great, but what if that were opened up to hundreds of rogue developers? It can't be done, because none of them are wanting to release control, and even if they did, it's too niche, so people would have to learn this specific system to code for it.

But look at the MPC Ren, which has no brain, yet has the controls of the MPC, and a USB interface. This taps into the entire PC environment. If they published the API, there'd instantly be hundreds of developers who could code for it. This is because, people already have PCs, and already know how to code for them, and there's huge libraries of existing code to start with. So the step to integrate software with the controller using a custom protocol is tiny compared to having to develop a dedicated standalone machine.

You know how you were finding clever ways to expand the MPC, doing things like voice-control by tying software that speaks MIDI to the MPC through USB? Well, you could do way more, with basically the same process, with something like the MPC Ren. Like how JJOS had Tetris before. You could find some Doom code, and a way to bridge its graphical output to the graphical input of the MPC, and the MPC button outputs to the Doom inputs, and then you're playing Doom on the MPC, something way beyond the capabilities of the dedicated MPC hardware.

Now of course that's ridiculous, you have no reason to play Doom on the MPC. But, it's just an example, of the power and possibility, which is very cheap when we share libraries of code and learn the same common PC environments. Maybe you love Ableton software, and just program a GUI for the MPC's LCD and method to interface with it using the MPC buttons. Then all you need to do is run Ableton, and you've got your MPC acting like a realtime performance machine. Then you can close that, and run the Akai software, and it's back to the familiar MPC paradigm.

That's just the theory. In practice, no one gets it yet, and it's taking a long time for the manufacturers to experiment with controller hardware, and the software developers to figure out how to interface with it, and the PC GUI is still stuck in the windows+mouse metaphor, with menus and all kinds of distractions that work against realtime creative workflow, and the latency is still higher than it should be, and most PCs still use loud fans and motors and take half a minute to cold boot, etc.

So, it's understandable why it's not obvious the benefit, and it seems kind of like reinventing the wheel to end up worse than it was. One of the things slowing it down is that the hardware makers don't seem to push the idea of publishing open source and specs. If these machines are using common protocols, then it's easier to integrate them with other software. For example, you can get a controller from Mackie or Behringer, and since they both speak the Mackie HUI protocol, which is published and coded into most major DAW apps, they both can work with your favorite software.

But will the MPC Ren have 3rd-party apps to choose? Or are you going to be locked into using Akai software? If they publish the spec, and encourage people to develop for it, making it free without some restrictive costly license, then you'll see it being integrated into major DAW software. You also may see neat rogue apps, like maybe JJ Sequencer with full LCD integration so it looks and feels just like JJOS on the MPC, but uses your PC RAM, HDD, and CPU, plus has Windows GUI for those times when you want to zoom in tight and do complex curve edits with mouse.

Without that, I think a lot of the benefit is more for Akai, and the choice to make a controller + software instead of a full machine is partially out of their own desire to make the most money with the least amount of effort. They probably even outsourced the PC software development, so instead of having to have a dedicated core team of engineers who understand the underlying architecture, they just wire some money to some firm and upload the spec, so they can quickly develop for cheap, and they can stick the update on their website.

Eventually someday, you could plug your MPC into your pocket phone/camera/player/browser/PC, and use it exactly as you do today, where it looks and feels identical and you can ignore the pocket PC completely. Then unplug and go to your friend's house, or the local club, and plug in there, to have their hardware instantly recall your MPC world, to play or perform without messing with their files.

But I don't see that happening any time soon, since the landscape is such a mess. Just trying to explain some of the theory, as to why we're moving in that direction. There are advantages to have a common electronic brain, with lots of appliance shells. There's disadvantages too, so some things, like a fire alarm, will always need to have some stable core of standalone functionality. But with audio and video, if you're designing a new music machine, it's easier and more appealing to design it around a PC today than some obscure electronic kit you ordered from some niche company only engineers know about.

Wow. Great post, Jamon! Many things you mentioned resonated with me - and I agree about it being a strategic business move by akai just as much as anything else.

What I mean is we all know the hardware mpc's with JJOS are already intergrated well with computers. The latest mpc before the renaissance (5000)wasn't that well received, and then Native Instruments comes in and launches an agressive marketing campain that targets mpc users directly and steals like half your clientele. Then you get undercover dudes on interenet forums hired to try to get the remaining 50% of akai's clientele to switch over as well.
All while this is happening akai sees a healthy market sustain over the last few years for the apc series of ableton live controllers.
Some executive realizes that they could strike back at Native Instruments by modelling the same play they made with the apc - make a serious controller and sell it at 75% the price of the old hardware model = get p$id - and so they do.
But hold on a minute, let's take it further. Those batches at NI are using stuff we pioneered as strenghts for their maschine - but we started the whole 16 pads thing. You like pads? Watch our pads now, all lighting up when you hit 'em! That legendary sequencer swing? That's us too! Sheeeeit, we INVENTED THE MPC 60, (thanks Mr. Linn) so let's write MPC 60 real big beside the button and make sure you get a nice close up of that for the promo, okay Jim? Shoot, we could make it grey, and give it a fancy name like rebirth or soemthing so like even the old school guys will be on the web arguing with each other about if they need to upgrade without ever having used one...

tosfalma wrote:i ve never played with a maschine, and i would like to ask what are the benefits of making a hardware devince that runs on the pc at once with its dedicated software. i mean all mpcs, with midi in/out and multiple outs, can fully integrate with every DAW for years now. so why buy a machine or a mpc ren or a hardware like that.

seems ur asking a very obvious question the fact lotta u guys are music tech nerds with big brains but ur still asking these types of questions ins 2012 is suprising.

surely u have watched many vids of maschine in action, it should be self evident.


with ur midi integration are u able load a vst to one of ur pads then play the patch on a connected midi keyboard?

are u able to access all the wav,soundpack that you have on ur pac from ur mpc controller assign them to pads and manipulate the samples?

do u have limitations in sample time when ur record shit into ur mpc?

do u have to use floppy disks and data cards when u save beats to ur mpc?

do u have to spend time trackout beats into a daw?

the above issues are negated when using a control surface linked with a computer application.

BUT the feel and workflow of working on the mpc standalone unit is retain because u do not need to look at the computer screen and use the mouse to perform the various operations required to make a beat.

with ur midi integration are u able load a vst to one of ur pads then play the patch on a connected midi keyboard?

of course! who can't? maybe i need you to rephrase this

are u able to access all the wav,soundpack that you have on ur pac from ur mpc controller assign them to pads and manipulate the samples?

can i load them without touching the PC keyboard/mouse? no. which is why i keep them all loaded on the MPC hard drive. i understand what you're saying, but functionally, yes, i can do this. the functional downside here is that all my samples must be in 16 bit 44100 hz.

do u have limitations in sample time when ur record **** into ur mpc?

yes - 21 minutes.
the downside of this is using large samples. audio tracks only get you so far. if i want to edit/warp an audio track better, i tilt my head 45 degrees and look at my DAW, then rerecord it.

do u have to use floppy disks and data cards when u save beats to ur mpc?

nope.

do u have to spend time trackout beats into a daw?

yes. 15 minutes of active presence required per beat. i do not consider this a big inconvenience for me, your mileage may cliche.


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i am not trying to be that d!ckhead who quotes your post into swiss cheese. it's just that we hear words like "change the way you make music" and a lot of big talk, but when actual featuresets of existing mpc-daw tie ins are compared to maschine/the imagined REN, i'm still not seeing the revolution.

i agree it's the way of the future (howard hughes) but i don't think the future is now...YET. great scott!

even stuff like "8 layers per pad" is cool but not a game changer. i know how to get 12 layers with 4 different envelope settings in jjos. velocitative if necessary.

what would help sell me is if someone went into more detail on Maschine's sampler.

can it do everything JJOS's sampler can do and more?
crossfade loop? note on?
can it do attack - sample start, filter cutoff, tune, attack?

if these things have badass samplers built into them (with an equally easy way to control them, like GPE) then it needs to be mentioned.

yep..some great posts above..i seeyour point, this is the natural evoultion of things...

now that i think again, if with this mpc, for lets say under 1000 euros, you buy an inteface/controller/DAW, then it might be worth the money, if you dont already have an interface and a DAW to track out/mix.

but then, ill say again something i think i've read on this forum..give a guitar virtuoso to choose among a guitar with 6 strings and a guitar with 1000 strings..which one would he choose? the first one..