about hardware that commminucate with pc (maschine, mpc ren)

To me the biggest benefit of such integrated software+controller combo is the fact that you get a lot of features and capabilities for a much more affordable price than if it was standalone hardware.
So it basically works the same as if it were standalone, you just provide the brains (computer) and audio ins and outs (your audio interface).

That's why Maschine is fast, you can use much more effects, and polyphony and memory are only limited by your computer's specs. Also with its big library it's like you have whole keyboard workstation inside. So you don't need to buy fx processors, sound modules, etc.

Basically you get a lot more for your money (provided you have a decent computer and an audio interface).

boogaloo wrote:
That's why Maschine is fast, you can use much more effects, and polyphony and memory are only limited by your computer's specs. Also with its big library it's like you have whole keyboard workstation inside. So you don't need to buy fx processors, sound modules, etc.

Basically you get a lot more for your money (provided you have a decent computer and an audio interface).

For me personally these "integrated" solutions are a good step, but they're essentially pointless (IMO IMO IMO IMO for me and my requirements IMO IMO IMO).

A lot more for your money provided you already have to spend X amount on the computer with all the FX, and a good quality audio interface, does NOT seem like good value to me, when I can control everything I need in Ableton using any random cheap MIDI controller for a fraction of the cost.

Integration? Really? It's a pre-assigned MIDI controller with custom software. I want to streamline my audio work, not add another layer of software on top of my DAW. I suppose debatably Maschine works as a VST. But even then why bother when in 2 clicks I can use any other device I own to control it just as efficiently.

If the computer is being used as "the brain" then I'll just use the computer. I'm quicker with the Apple mouse and keyboard shortcuts than I ever was using a jog wheel and buttons.

All of this however is only in relation to my needs, so before someone pounces on me... it's just an opinion haha. I COME IN PEACE!

Absolutely, to each their own. This is just my opinion, it's not valid for everyone. I fully understand your point of view.

Im going to have to be convinced it can really rock midi tight to the outside world as well as a 3000.

for me, its simple. if i like a record, i rip it from vinyl to my computer. if i like a record, chances are im going to sample it too. that means all my samples are basically on the computer anyways.

so the advantage for me is drag and drop sample to pad. In other words "file management".

everything else for me is just as fast on the mpc2500 w/jjos......I think jjos has spoiled me a bit with the NDC chop, so for me, that is a requirement now. but in the past, the mpc4k and mpc2xl has done me just fine with chopping, it just got a bit messy with samples because I'd have to duplicate samples, etc.

but with maschine I'm able to replicate jjos NDC chop (of course maschine style).

If mpc2500 had usb 2.0 and wasnt slow as **** trasnfering samples, and maybe had some kind of akysys thing going on, i would be very happy.

and btw, i just bought maschine bout a month ago, still use the mpc2500, and personally like the overall feel of the mpc2500. but cant deny the productivity I have by being able to drag samples to pads, i simply, can cover more ground.

But i tell you what, if i didnt come from mpc state of mind, it might not be the same. the workflow and way you make beats on the mpc is condusive to a certain way of making beats that just feels right to me. and I know I will always try to recreate that no matter what gear I use.


The other reason I personally like software is because I always see the possibility to mature something, grow something, improve, and adapt it. software allows you to do this. basically the skys the limit so to speak. but with a controller, you get that hands on feel.

the one thing I realized tho while using maschine, was not so much its tight integration with the software that made it awesome....actually, i find myself using the mouse to edit my samples more than the knobs, because i have more control....but its still the immediateness i get with dropping a sample on a pad, then duplicating that pad and having very little friction between loading a sample, editing it, and dropping it into a track.

another thing that i like are effects and being able to drop vsts on my drums while im making beats, and having knobs to tweak, to me, its instant gratification, I dont have to wait to track my shit out to fugg with it. or i dont have to save my kits, transfer to computer, load it up in an editor, tweak it, then bring it back to mpc and hope its what I wanted for the beat. I can make it what i want while I make the beat.

one more thing, I realize you could accomplish the same thing with mpd32 and ableton or poise + reaper, etc. but you have to set things up, iron out the kinks in your workflow, etc. I think the reason folks love the mpc is cause its direct. its exactly what you need to make an ill beat. all thats left is up to you to put samples in. so for me, i think its the same. maschine offered that, its an all in one stand alone deal. I dont have to set my daw up, map a controller, figure out whatever with my sound card....whatever.......I just turn th shit on, I know the controller will work, load up a sound, hit record. just like an mpc, i turn it on, sample a record, load up some drums, make a friggin beat. I dont have to worry about setting anything up, or do anything special, and it does exactly what i want to make a beat. laziness or straight forwardness i guess you could call it.

so basically:
1."file management"
2."instant gratification"
3."straight forwardness"

Nym wrote:thanks for playing.

With MPC Ren, in theory, you could turn off PC display and edit exactly like you do on MPC 1000.

so...in theory, why not edit exactly like you do on an MPC1000??
we already HAVE visual grid editing on the LCD. what's new here?

here is the thing. i doubt you will use it like that tho, unless you are doing something in a live set, and even then maybe not. why?

ive realized with using maschine, I end up tweaking the knobs on the controller, but staring at the computer monitor. it bigger, easier to look at, and well...........right in front of my face.

yes, i have tried to use maschine without looking at the screen, but imho, it makes no differance, i gravitate towards the monitor, especially when staring at a wave form to move the start point exactly where I want.

i think its the hybrid part that is powerful. you can do either or both(whatever your preference, no right or wrong). thats the power, being able to do whatever you want. I dont have to grab the mouse, and dont have to look at the monitor. or i can somethings work better on the computer with a mouse like moving 20 samples to a folder. or copying a sample....or selecting an entire midi loop, copying it with ctrl+c and ctrl+v to a new track. its just faster. but other things like turning knobs, tweaking start points, chopping, etc. is better with a controller thats tightly integrated.

IMHO, where i think akai or some third party could make some dope software is if they realized this and didnt just make a "tightly integrated controller" in the traditional sense, but spent some time in the workflow department and figured out the trade offs between using the mouse, staring at the computer screen, moving back to a controller, turning some knobs, etc. and moving back to the computer (going back and forth between the two) and designed software controller combo that married the two with that workflow in mind.

so in a sense, you need the tight integration of the controller, cause some people will use it that way. and its nice to have a reliable setup out of the box. but at the same time you may actually not just use the controller, or just use the software...you will actually end up using a combo of both. the question is, is the controller and software built to have that workflow and make you not feel like you are annoyed by the computer, or limited by the controller.

^ interesting. thanks for such an in depth post.

regarding looking at the monitor, here's a concern - do you ever get fatigued by looking up and down a lot? to and from the controller/monitor? it's a simple but overlooked issue IMO - i used to use dual monitors but got rid of one because the mere effort of turning my head/glancing at something else was distracting and fatiguing! let alone looking up and down.

for a while i had my MPC screen set in a breakout box connected to a DB25 cable so i detach it from the MPC and put it up near my computer monitor. i thought i was so clever for doing this. however, i didn't last 2 weeks! it was the F-keys - i couldn't get them right because i didn't have a visual link between which key was which. it interrupted my muscle memory.

the more benefits i hear about a "hybrid" solution like maschine or mpc-v, the more it sounds like i have one already, at least the parts that intrigue me. i'd say i'm 90% there, with existing technology.

since all my outputs from the MPC go to reaper, i can just drop vsts on them (with 1 touch of a hotkeys, even, since i have the FX i use saved/learned already as chains). unless i'm using an eq plugin or doing some fine tuning, i don't have to touch the mouse.

one thing - i never understood "automap" - does it just pick the first X number of vst parameters and put them on the knobs? with a VST with thirty params or so, that seems not so useful. otherwise i definitely see the appeal, but it's easily replicated when you just learn the controls and then just drop it in your fx chain as a preset.

also, something cool - poor maligned, misutilized mice. i wrote a script that allows me to hit a hotkey and translate the mouse movement into high resolution midi data controlling volume of the current selected reaper track...this means less reaching for the volume slider.

Nym wrote:regarding looking at the monitor, here's a concern - do you ever get fatigued by looking up and down a lot? to and from the controller/monitor? it's a simple but overlooked issue IMO - i used to use dual monitors but got rid of one because the mere effort of turning my head/glancing at something else was distracting and fatiguing! let alone looking up and down.

You don't have to constantly glance back and forth between the controller and the computer monitor with Maschine which was a point cyrus was making. You have the option to do so or not according to your preference because you really can do pretty much everything from the controller itself including browsing/loading samples/plugins/presets, opening and saving projects, chopping/editing waveforms, duplicate, nudge, transpose...etc. all while the computer monitor is turned off if you want. Obviously certain things like drag and drop, and typing names of projects/scenes/patterns is much faster with a mouse and a keyboard. But the point is that you're not forced to do either or for pretty much the entire experience of using Maschine. It's the best of both worlds of hands-on feel of a standalone hardware workflow and the power and convenience of computer software. It's unclear whether the MPC Renaissance will offer that level of integration and end up being nothing more than a glorified MPD. Maschine also has higher-than-MIDI resolution encoders. And I'm afraid Akai won't be able to compete with the Maschine/Komplete integration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSO3ElYchGI

Nym wrote:one thing - i never understood "automap" - does it just pick the first X number of vst parameters and put them on the knobs?

With Maschine, you get pages of 8 knobs you can scroll through with the arrow buttons and you can quickly clear any automappings and make your own custom mapping and save that as default for that plugin. The major benefit of the the way Maschine is set up is that you have the displays right above/below the buttons and knobs that shows you the names and values of the devices and parameters you're controlling, as opposed to just having the APC40-style LED rings around the knobs like the MPC Renaissance.

Nym wrote:one thing - i never understood "automap" - does it just pick the first X number of vst parameters and put them on the knobs? with a VST with thirty params or so, that seems not so useful. otherwise i definitely see the appeal, but it's easily replicated when you just learn the controls and then just drop it in your fx chain as a preset.

Basically with automap you click what you want to control, move whatever bit you want to use on the controller and it is automatically assigned with visual feedback. Usually in the form of some LEDs surrounding the knob/whatever. However If you choose a controller with a screen it will also list the parameter name too.

But with the smaller models I believe you get a page option, something like banks on the MPC. So you can scroll through and have several "pages" of assigned bits and bobs... and that's all on their cheapest model.

Like I said somewhere else, all this "hybrid" stuff is nonsense. The only thing Novation bits have ever lacked really are velocity sensitive pads. Otherwise this technology has been successfully in place for while now.

I found Novation Automap to be quite clunky in that it forced you to use a duplicate "wrapped" version of your plugins for it to work whereas Maschine's automapping just works.

Multifunctionality is the key. I want to be able to make beats anywhere, go home, plug 1 cable into my hardware and track out. No more, no less. If I can currently take my MPC anywhere, make beats, come home, plug into my interface and track out, whats the **** difference.....8 cables instead of one....whoopdie **** doo. Akai is taking steps backwards with this product.

IF THEY WANT TO SUCCEED (AND I HOPE YOU DUMBASS AKAI DEVELOPERS ARE READING THIS) YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO WORK BOTH AS A STAND ALONE PIECE, AND AS A CONTROLLER!!!!

Unless Akai develops this product like a digital camera (On board memory, os, etc, etc.) and you can take it out into the audio world to snap audio pics of some kitty (lol, thanks for the quotes, Jamon), they have dropped the ball. Yes, pc connectivity and dedicated software are great ideas, but taking away the MPC's ability to operate standalone is dumb. You can just turn your monitor off, huh??? I have a **** imac, so i cant just turn my god damned monitor off or I power the whole computer down.

Akai made a product, and the Ren is not the same type of product. IDK how they can even call the ren an MPC.

*just because it looks like an mpc, doesnt make it an mpc*

I've just had a quick look at Novation's website and apparently their newer Impulse range do in fact have back-lit velocity sensitive pads. So there we go another contender of sorts.

Empty, I can't comment on later versions of Automap but my point was more that the technology to do these things has been around for a while in one form or another. Also every controller that has visual feedback will require some form of software, so the wrapping thing hardly seems like a big trade off IMO.

I mean for Maschine to host and automap to plug-ins you would need a layer of software open surely?

scoobylol wrote:Empty, I can't comment on later versions of Automap but my point was more that the technology to do these things has been around for a while in one form or another.

And it shows its age through its clunkiness in comparison to the automapping in Maschine. With Novation's Automap, you have to have a separate software called Automap Server running while you use a DAW/plugin host in order for it to work at all. And you first have to choose which plugins you want to work with Automap manually in its plugin manager, which creates "wrapped" duplicate copies of those plugins with the word Automap in the name because it only works with plugins that you have to wrap as Automap plugins manually before you can start using it. There's none of that involved with Maschine's automapping. You can browse and load any third party plugin directly from the hardware and they will instantly automap to the knobs. You can also browse and load plugin presets directly on the hardware for all NI instruments and effects.

scoobylol wrote:I mean for Maschine to host and automap to plug-ins you would need a layer of software open surely?

Nope. You don't need anything else open. It's all built-in and just works.