latency!.....is my concern with Renaissance

DJ Hellfire wrote:

Retrofreak wrote:When I hit the MPC pads there is a delay..the more plugs thats added the worse it gets.

Computers used:

Mac Book Pro 17" i7 2.2 8GB ram with Apogee Duet 2

Open Labs Miko i7 980x 12GB ram, W7 64 bit , RME 800 and Mackie Onyx 1640i

Sounds like a buffer issue. Have you tried reducing the buffer/latency to 64 or even 128? I think you can even get down to 32 on the Mac! Those i7's are beasts and can take a lot of abuse! And I've read that RME makes some of the lowest latency interfaces!

Hellfire,

My RME can go down as far as 32 samples, usually its initially set to 64. Working with such a buffer setting is great, no problem at all.

But, if I add a plugin which induces delay of 120 samples (for example),
Would my system still be 32 samples of total latency, or would it be 120 samples.?

labcoats wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:

Retrofreak wrote:When I hit the MPC pads there is a delay..the more plugs thats added the worse it gets.

Computers used:

Mac Book Pro 17" i7 2.2 8GB ram with Apogee Duet 2

Open Labs Miko i7 980x 12GB ram, W7 64 bit , RME 800 and Mackie Onyx 1640i

Sounds like a buffer issue. Have you tried reducing the buffer/latency to 64 or even 128? I think you can even get down to 32 on the Mac! Those i7's are beasts and can take a lot of abuse! And I've read that RME makes some of the lowest latency interfaces!

Hellfire,

My RME can go down as far as 32 samples, usually its initially set to 64. Working with such a buffer setting is great, no problem at all.

But, if I add a plugin which induces delay of 120 samples (for example),
Would my system still be 32 samples of total latency, or would it be 120 samples.?

Well, it would be the 120 samples plus the 32 that is already applied to the session. So it would be 152 samples, but only for the track/s that's causing that delay. So all other tracks that are reporting 0 samples of delay are running at the sessions 32 samples of latency, which is nothing. However, the track with the plugin causing 120 samples of delay just means that track will play 120 samples later than all the other tracks with 0 sample of delay, but will not affect the other tracks. But each track in the session will have a base delay of 32 even though they say 0, since your buffer is set to 32. But remember, this delay is only the PLAYBACK delay. The actual audio recording should be 100% sample accurate with no delay. Meaning whether you record at a buffer of 32 or at a buffer of 1024, the actual audio files will record in the exact same place. It's just playing back later at higher buffers. If the audio isn't recording in the correct spots, then you have an interface driver issue as was a big problem with Pro Tools 8.0.4.

Anyway, basically, don't worry about what the sessions buffer says. Just worry about the delay that's being reported on each track as that value is the tracks delay in relation to one another. So if one track is reporting 120 samples of delay, you have to compensate the other tracks to have the same exact delay so the auto plays back in alignment. To compensate, you can use the time adjuster plugin that comes stock with Pro Tools to manually adjust the other tracks, Mellowmuse has an auto delay compensation plugin but it sucks, or if you have Pro Tools 9 or 10, it will do it for you!

In this particular case, we are talking about VI's, which I have yet to see any that cause delay. So I'm assuming you are referring to an effects delay (eq, reverb, limiter)? What DAW software you use?

Well, it would be the 120 samples plus the 32 that is already applied to the session.

For clarity lets try and stick to a couple of basic points for now.

Slightly wrong. It would be 120 samples. The entire latency of the system is dictated by the plugin with the largest amount of delay. Its not a cumulative effect. If you have one track reporting 30 samples of delay and another with 1000 samples the one with the 30 samples of delay reaches the out put (what you hear) at the same time as the track with 1000 samples of delay. This is why delay compensation was invented. Other wise those two tracks wouldnt be in sync. If your playing Ren live and was on the track with the 30 samples of delay its actually got 1000 samples of delay because of the other track with the 1000 sample inducing plugin. This is not made up, I can guarantee you this is a fact.

The next question I have to ask is would you agree or not that regardless of how powerful the CPU, and how good the sound card is, it would have no bearing on the latency a plugin puts out?

labcoats wrote:

Well, it would be the 120 samples plus the 32 that is already applied to the session.

For clarity lets try and stick to a couple of basic points for now.

1. Slightly wrong. It would be 120 samples.

2. The entire latency of the system is dictated by the plugin with the largest amount of delay. Its not a cumulative effect. If you have one track reporting 30 samples of delay and another with 1000 samples the one with the 30 samples of delay reaches the out put (what you hear) at the same time as the track with 1000 samples of delay. This is why delay compensation was invented. Other wise those two tracks wouldnt be in sync. If your playing Ren live and was on the track with the 30 samples of delay its actually got 1000 samples of delay because of the other track with the 1000 sample inducing plugin. This is not made up, I can guarantee you this is a fact.

The next question I have to ask is would you agree or not that regardless of how powerful the CPU, and how good the sound card is, it would have no bearing on the latency a plugin puts out?

1. No! You are incorrect! From the jump, with no plugins inserted on any tracks, at a buffer of 32, ALL TRACKS automatically playback with 32 samples of delay. Now you add a plugin to a track that causes an ADDITIONAL 120 samples of delay to THAT TRACK, the base 32 samples for that tracks audio is not just gonna disappear because you added a plugin. That base 32 samples still applies to that track, just as it does with the others. But the plugin is going to add an ADDITIONAL 120 to that one track alone, not the entire session. The extra 32 samples is not going to be shown on the track, but it's there, according to the hardware buffer setting. The track is still going to display 120, because the tracks only display PLUGIN delay, not system delay. But system delay is automatically affecting every track!

2. Again, incorrect! The track putting out 1000 samples of delay has ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on the other tracks. It just plays out of sync (slower) than the other tracks by 1000 samples, but all other tracks still playback at their original timing. Therefore ALL OTHER TRACKS WITH NO PLUGIN DELAY also need to be delayed to re-sync with the track that has the 1000 samples of plugin delay. Tracks with lower delay will reach the outputs BEFORE the one with 1000 samples, NOT at the same time. THAT is why auto delay compensation was invented; so you no longer have to sit there with a calculator to figured out the proper delay values for each track (which may be different depending on the plugins used) to match the highest delayed track!

Nothing has a bearing on how much delay a plugin causes to a track but the plugin efficiency itself. For example, my Massey L2007 Limiter causes 64 samples of delay. Doesn't matter what computer/sound card it's on or what version of Pro Tools you use. It's delay will always be 64 samples, unless the developer releases an update to the plugin that makes it run more efficiently (which PSP did with the Vintage Warmer plugin). The CPU/sound card has absolutely NOTHING to do with plugin latency. The only thing the CPU/sound card determine is overall SESSION/system latency and what the lowest possible buffer you can set for all AUDIO playback.

And again, I have yet to see/use any virtual instrument plugins that cause track delay! From my experience, the only plugins that typically cause delay are those plugins that LOOK AHEAD at the audio before processing (like eq's, compressors, reverbs, limiters). Virtual Instrument plugins do not look ahead, so there is really no reason for them to cause delay to the track they are inserted on!

If you wont believe me perhaps you will believe the documentation written for Logic Express but the same applies to any Daw. The key here is the 30ms



FROM LOGICS MANUAL

As an example: Imagine a simple song with a few bass, guitar, vocal, and drum tracks. The bass track is routed through an audio channel that contains an effect that introduces a latency of 10 ms. All guitar tracks are routed to an aux channel that contains several inserted effects. The combined latency introduced by these effects is 30 milliseconds (ms). The vocals are routed through another aux channel that has a set of effects that introduce 15 ms of latency. The drum tracks are routed straight to the main outputs, without being routed through any effects. If latencies were not compensated for, the drum tracks would play 30 ms ahead of the guitar tracks. The bass track would play 20 ms ahead of the guitar track, but 10 ms behind the drums. The vocals would play 15 ms before the guitar track, but 15 ms behind the drums and 5 ms behind the bass. Needless to say, this isn’t ideal.

With plug-in latency compensation set to All, Logic Express shifts the bass track forward by 10 ms, thus synchronizing the bass and drum tracks. Logic Express will then delay both streams routed to the output channel by 30 ms, aligning them with the guitar tracks. The aux channel that the vocals are streamed to is also delayed by 15 ms, aligning it with the drum and guitar streams (in other words, the 15 ms delay is increased to 30 ms). The precise calculations required for each stream are handled automatically.

Hopefully we can put this side of the issue to rest now.

labcoats wrote:If you wont believe me perhaps you will believe the documentation written for Logic Express but the same applies to any Daw. The key here is the 30ms

As an example: Imagine a simple song with a few bass, guitar, vocal, and drum tracks. The bass track is routed through an audio channel that contains an effect that introduces a latency of 10 ms. All guitar tracks are routed to an aux channel that contains several inserted effects. The combined latency introduced by these effects is 30 milliseconds (ms). The vocals are routed through another aux channel that has a set of effects that introduce 15 ms of latency. The drum tracks are routed straight to the main outputs, without being routed through any effects. If latencies were not compensated for, the drum tracks would play 30 ms ahead of the guitar tracks. The bass track would play 20 ms ahead of the guitar track, but 10 ms behind the drums. The vocals would play 15 ms before the guitar track, but 15 ms behind the drums and 5 ms behind the bass. Needless to say, this isn’t ideal.

With plug-in latency compensation set to All, Logic Express shifts the bass track forward by 10 ms, thus synchronizing the bass and drum tracks. Logic Express will then delay both streams routed to the output channel by 30 ms, aligning them with the guitar tracks. The aux channel that the vocals are streamed to is also delayed by 15 ms, aligning it with the drum and guitar streams (in other words, the 15 ms delay is increased to 30 ms). The precise calculations required for each stream are handled automatically.

Hopefully we can put this side of the issue to rest now.

Maybe I have been in Japan too long and my English comprehension is slipping (or my eyes are tired of re-reading the same explainations...)...but this quote sounds exactly what DJ Hellfire wrote already.

And again, I have yet to see/use any virtual instrument plugins that cause track delay! From my experience, the only plugins that typically cause delay are those plugins that LOOK AHEAD at the audio before processing (like eq's, compressors, reverbs, limiters). Virtual Instrument plugins do not look ahead, so there is really no reason for them to cause delay to the track they are inserted on!

Yes, thats right.
For the umpteenth time - the issue is about when processing plugins are added to the VI tracks and in this case Ren is a VI and susceptible to the very same issues as any other VST, even more so when its a performance instrument like Ren. I have stated this over and over again,

You actually agree with me, whats the problem?

PS
Vi's are not latency free though. But were talking minuscule and irrelevant 30 samples of delay - thats 0.60 milliseconds approx ms. We will not feel that when we hit pads.

labcoats wrote:If you wont believe me perhaps you will believe the documentation written for Logic Express but the same applies to any Daw. The key here is the 30ms

As an example: Imagine a simple song with a few bass, guitar, vocal, and drum tracks. The bass track is routed through an audio channel that contains an effect that introduces a latency of 10 ms. All guitar tracks are routed to an aux channel that contains several inserted effects. The combined latency introduced by these effects is 30 milliseconds (ms). The vocals are routed through another aux channel that has a set of effects that introduce 15 ms of latency. The drum tracks are routed straight to the main outputs, without being routed through any effects. If latencies were not compensated for, the drum tracks would play 30 ms ahead of the guitar tracks. The bass track would play 20 ms ahead of the guitar track, but 10 ms behind the drums. The vocals would play 15 ms before the guitar track, but 15 ms behind the drums and 5 ms behind the bass. Needless to say, this isn’t ideal.

With plug-in latency compensation set to All, Logic Express shifts the bass track forward by 10 ms, thus synchronizing the bass and drum tracks. Logic Express will then delay both streams routed to the output channel by 30 ms, aligning them with the guitar tracks. The aux channel that the vocals are streamed to is also delayed by 15 ms, aligning it with the drum and guitar streams (in other words, the 15 ms delay is increased to 30 ms). The precise calculations required for each stream are handled automatically.

Hopefully we can put this side of the issue to rest now.

Uh, yeah, we can rest it because it says the exact same shit I said, except is mentions aux tracks which I purposely did not touch on because of how complicated the math can get and I didn't feel like typing about it! What the hell is your point?

It says nothing even close to your false statement of "The entire latency of the system is dictated by the plugin with the largest amount of delay." System latency and plugin latency are two different things. The two do not effect one another.

Only difference is in Pro Tools, no audio gets shifted forward, only backwards, but the end result is still the same.

You're spoiled, you have logic and have had auto delay compensation and don't seem to REALLY understand how the math is since you never had to do it manually. I use Pro Tools and we JUST got auto delay compensation a year ago for native. So I've been doing this MANUALLY for years. So trust that I know how the MATH ACTUALLY works! And I here, I found a perfect video that shows exactly what I'm talking about!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyTmExzNed0


_____________________________________________________________

labcoats wrote:

And again, I have yet to see/use any virtual instrument plugins that cause track delay! From my experience, the only plugins that typically cause delay are those plugins that LOOK AHEAD at the audio before processing (like eq's, compressors, reverbs, limiters). Virtual Instrument plugins do not look ahead, so there is really no reason for them to cause delay to the track they are inserted on!

Yes, thats right.
For the umpteenth time - the issue is about when processing plugins are added to the VI tracks and in this case Ren is a VI and susceptible to the very same issues as any other VST, even more so when its a performance instrument like Ren. I have stated this over and over again,

You actually agree with me, whats the problem?

PS
Vi's are not latency free though. But were talking minuscule and irrelevant 30 samples of delay - thats 0.60 milliseconds approx ms. We will not feel that when we hit pads.

We were not talkin about processing plugins. We were talking about virtual instruments NOT followed up by a latency inducing processing plugin. Who the hell wants to throw on a latency inducing processing plugin in the creation stage? We are talking about CREATING on an MPC/hardware module combo which has no real processing plugin ability, verse CREATING on Maschine/Ren/software module combo. Why would you throw processing into that comparison when one is not even capable of it?

And that 0.60 ms of delay is not even worth mentioning since any instrument hardware or software will have roughly a similar delay. The only delay that matters is that which shows up on the track! That 0.60 is a non-factor dude!

_____________________________________________________________



This is where the conversation started. Notice we are talking about laying notes, not mixing the goddamned beat. What are you reading?:

DJ Hellfire wrote:

JAH wrote:

masada2502 wrote:latency does affect maschine...!!!! ..i had it! took it back. it wasn't as tight as an mpc and damn sure didnt have the feel and swing of an mpc.. i just don't get how people cant hear or feel the difference .my computer is top of the line the best cpu 16 gig mem fastest hd.and still latency played an issue in the performance from my fingers to the software.part of why mpcs are efficient at what they do is the lack of latency or virtually 0 latency .u can build from a thought to a manifested idea with little to no fiddling .Maschine i had to fiddle to much to get what i wanted .part of that issue was the few Milli seconds of latency was interpreted(digital guesses)thus notes are placed where i didnt want them .

You problem was with your sound card, sound card drivers and not your computer.

I have Maschine hooked up to a PC and using my Fantom G as the sound card. Latency is at 441 samples coming in at 30.0 ms. Even with this latency, I can work without issues.

If you got a better sound card, you will have better results.

Exactly! And your ram isn't the only factor in latency. It's your PROCESSOR that determines whether you can run the program at low latency. I'm running Maschine at latency of only 64 samples, with only 4.5 ms coming in; and that's with both my 003 and my Mbox Micro AND at 48,000Hz! So don't blame the gear. It's user error on your part! I personal don't understand how Jah can put up with 441 samples of delay! I personally can't use any setting above 128, but that's me!

So I'm not concerned at all with latency with Ren, just as latency isn't an issue for me with Reason, Pro Tools, Maschine, SampleTank, etc. My quad core beast is running @3.4GHz with 16GB ram!

Why cant you just admit you were wrong? You stated the plugin delays are cumulative I said they weren't. This is proven by the Logic manual section I posted. Can you admit that now please. its not fair that your attempting to airbrush that point with this:

We were not talkin about processing plugins. We were talking about virtual instruments NOT followed up by a latency inducing processing plugin. Who the hell wants to throw on a latency inducing processing plugin in the creation stage?

Wrong again: I have never once shifted my position in this debate and processing plugins is exactly what I've been talking about all along. Your arrived later stated some innaccuracies and I called you out on it.

Allow me to respost my first post on this topic which was number six. You arrived later.

Labcoats said:

If you use any look ahead plugins as you write such as limiters, some compressors, eqs, other virtual instruments your latency will creep up. This is NOT a theory, this is fact. There are many plugins out there which add no latency, but there are many that do, and software companies dont always make this information available.

Adjusting your soundcards buffer settings will not solve a plugins built in latency. My RME card is permanently set to 64 samples and then I have to raise it to 128 or 256, and sometimes 512 later on in the track depending on when I add more plugins. Even at 128 or 256 I can feel the delay easily. I will say the worst software for this by a long way is ableton live. Even just creating group tracks for some reason increases the latency a lot.

If you write without FX, EQ, compression and then mix later on you will be fine. But a lot of us dont work like this and never have. I have to hear it like a record as I work.

JAH wrote:
Maybe I have been in Japan too long and my English comprehension is slipping (or my eyes are tired of re-reading the same explainations...)...but this quote sounds exactly what DJ Hellfire wrote already.

Actually He's been on point with almost everything except how latency comp works. you on the other hand were all over the place and was on point with nothing. for the benefit of future MPC noobs would you now like to take this opportunity to state you were wrong. I mean, from the stuff you said about its your CPU, user error, get a faster computer, get a new soundcard etc. All of that is inaccurate so its only fair you man up to it now, right..

labcoats wrote:Why cant you just admit you were wrong? You stated the plugin delays are cumulative I said they weren't. This is proven by the Logic manual section I posted. Can you admit that now please. its not fair that your attempting to airbrush that point with this:

We were not talkin about processing plugins. We were talking about virtual instruments NOT followed up by a latency inducing processing plugin. Who the hell wants to throw on a latency inducing processing plugin in the creation stage?

Wrong again: I have never once shifted my position in this debate and processing plugins is exactly what I've been talking about all along. Your arrived later stated some innaccuracies and I called you out on it.

Allow me to respost my first post on this topic which was number six. You arrived later.

Labcoats said:

If you use any look ahead plugins as you write such as limiters, some compressors, eqs, other virtual instruments your latency will creep up. This is NOT a theory, this is fact. There are many plugins out there which add no latency, but there are many that do, and software companies dont always make this information available.

Adjusting your soundcards buffer settings will not solve a plugins built in latency. My RME card is permanently set to 64 samples and then I have to raise it to 128 or 256, and sometimes 512 later on in the track depending on when I add more plugins. Even at 128 or 256 I can feel the delay easily. I will say the worst software for this by a long way is ableton live. Even just creating group tracks for some reason increases the latency a lot.

If you write without FX, EQ, compression and then mix later on you will be fine. But a lot of us dont work like this and never have. I have to hear it like a record as I work.

You need to go back and RE-READ EVERYTHING I said because you're trying so hard to prove me wrong on something that I am 100% correct on that you are just getting confused and are starting to confuse me. My argument first of all was not in disagreeance with your 6th post, which I wasn't even aware of until you just mentioned it. My argument was that with the right computer and settings, latency should NOT be an issue with Maschine nor Ren, and a couple of us posted demo vids of Maschine. Then someone mentioned throwing VST VI's in the mix and latency will be an issue, and I then argued against that by saying Virtual Instrument plugins SHOULD NOT be causing latency and showed an example of 10 different VI's loaded in a session all with 0 samples of delay. Then here you come with all these other off topic questions and throwing processing plugins after the VST's in the mix, which no one was even talking about between me, Jah, masada, and Retrofreak. Go back and quote me on anything you say is incorrect and I will back it up! I don't know where you're getting this "cumulative" statement from.

These are the facts I'm arguing (read slowly and carefully):
1. At a session/system buffer of 32, ALL AUDIO playback is delayed, by default, by 32 samples of SYSTEM DELAY before it goes through processing inserts, even though that 32 samples DOES NOT SHOW ON THE TRACKS. Nothing you can do about that delay. FACT! However, taking one of those audio tracks, which is already delayed by 32 DEFAULT samples, and running it through a plugin that adds 120 samples of delay to the TRACK, means the TOTAL round trip of that track is 152 samples. FACT! Only 120 of it is attributed to the plugin (as shown on the DLY meter), the other 32 samples is the default delay, that is there by nature, applied to the raw audio BEFORE it goes through processing/inserts, just as it is on ALL of the other tracks. FACT! You cannot discredit the system delay because the plugin delay meter does not display it. It's still there! Don't believe it? Try routing the output of that audio track with the plugin out the main out of your interface and back into an input of the interface and record the audio to a new track. The newly recorded audio is gonna be a total of 152 samples later than the original audio.

2. Any credible Professional VI's DO NOT induce extra latency to your track since they do not look ahead like some processing plugins do. Otherwise they would be impossible for a professional player to use. Doesn't make sense. If you have a VI that causes latency, show me because I've never seen one. And I'm not talking about slapping a L16 limiter after your VI plugin.

3. Plugin latency and System latency are two SEPARATE things and do not affect each other, nor do they cancel each other out. Raising the buffer on your session does not increase or decrease the latency that ANY plugin causes. And inserting a plugin that has high latency only affects the audio of the track it is inserted on, not the entire system latency, nor any of the other tracks.

That are the main points I have made to you this whole thread. They are ALL TRUE and I have not changed any of my statements and will not. Again, go back and re read my posts and figure out where your confusion is coming from!

labcoats wrote:

JAH wrote:
Maybe I have been in Japan too long and my English comprehension is slipping (or my eyes are tired of re-reading the same explainations...)...but this quote sounds exactly what DJ Hellfire wrote already.

Actually He's been on point with almost everything except how latency comp works. you on the other hand were all over the place and was on point with nothing. for the benefit of future MPC noobs would you now like to take this opportunity to state you were wrong. I mean, from the stuff you said about its your CPU, user error, get a faster computer, get a new soundcard etc. All of that is inaccurate so its only fair you man up to it now, right..

Again, we were talking about LAYING NOTES! Jah was correct. Again, with the proper computer, sound card, and settings, one should NOT have latency issues with Maschine/Ren, with or without VST VI's. That is the argument. Anything else your throwing around is just turning into misinformed confusion!

Also, again, I am also on point how the compensation works. The system latency is NOT compensated for since it's already evenly applied to all audio in the session, only the plugin latency is! And this is what I have already said and gave you a vid of!

Ok, you arrived on the thread and called out Retrofreak for saying as a user of Maschine he experiences latency. You were having none of it and told him just as Jah did that the problem is with him or his setup. I have explained to you and Jah in detail manhy times the problem were talking about is nothing to do with how powerful a computer is. This point you have failed to understand from the word go.

You constantly repeat VIs have no latency when in fact they do, but its so low its totally unnoticeable. But, I will let you have the VIs have no latency which will hopefully make you stop repeating the same thing over and over and getting bogged down on the wrong point. I repeat a VI its self is not the problem.

It started with this post from Retrofreak


Retrofreak wrote:

When I hit the MPC pads there is a delay..the more plugs thats added the worse it gets.

Computers used:

Mac Book Pro 17" i7 2.2 8GB ram with Apogee Duet 2

Open Labs Miko i7 980x 12GB ram, W7 64 bit , RME 800 and Mackie Onyx 1640i

DjHellfire Said:

Sounds like a buffer issue. Have you tried reducing the buffer/latency to 64 or even 128? I think you can even get down to 32 on the Mac! Those i7's are beasts and can take a lot of abuse! And I've read that RME makes some of the lowest latency interfaces!

What you said is wrong but you continued to push the point Retrofreak was wrong in a number of following posts which I surely don't have to repeat here becasue the above was your general point. I read what you were saying and then I said the statement below to help you understand how latency inducing plugins work. There isnt a major daw out there which doesn't have ADC and if you didn't add in that crucial point in to your thinking that's not my fault.

Labcoat said:

Hellfire, My RME can go down as far as 32 samples, usually its initially set to 64. Working with such a buffer setting is great, no problem at all.

But, if I add a plugin which induces delay of 120 samples (for example),
Would my system still be 32 samples of total latency, or would it be 120 samples.?

DjHellfire Said:

Well, it would be the 120 samples plus the 32 that is already applied to the session. So it would be 152 samples, but only for the track/s that's causing that delay.

Labcoat Said:

Slightly wrong. It would be 120 samples. The entire latency of the system is dictated by the plugin with the largest amount of delay.

Dj Hellfire said:

1. No! You are incorrect! From the jump, etc etc

2. Again, incorrect! The track putting out 1000 samples of delay has ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on the other tracks etc etc.

Of course not only are you wrong there, but spectacularly so. This confirmed to me 100% you do not understand how ADC works along with latency inducing plugins. I wondered how I could help you understand what should have been a very simple point from the very start. So, I posted the quote from Logic Express which is the exact same written for Logic and is exactly how ADC works in all Daws.

From The Logic Manual written by the people who design the software

As an example: Imagine a simple song with a few bass, guitar, vocal, and drum tracks. The bass track is routed through an audio channel that contains an effect that introduces a latency of 10 ms. All guitar tracks are routed to an aux channel that contains several inserted effects. The combined latency introduced by these effects is 30 milliseconds (ms). The vocals are routed through another aux channel that has a set of effects that introduce 15 ms of latency. The drum tracks are routed straight to the main outputs, without being routed through any effects. If latencies were not compensated for, the drum tracks would play 30 ms ahead of the guitar tracks. The bass track would play 20 ms ahead of the guitar track, but 10 ms behind the drums. The vocals would play 15 ms before the guitar track, but 15 ms behind the drums and 5 ms behind the bass. Needless to say, this isn’t ideal.

With plug-in latency compensation set to All, Logic Express shifts the bass track forward by 10 ms, thus synchronizing the bass and drum tracks. Logic Express will then delay both streams routed to the output channel by 30 ms, aligning them with the guitar tracks. The aux channel that the vocals are streamed to is also delayed by 15 ms, aligning it with the drum and guitar streams (in other words, the 15 ms delay is increased to 30 ms). The precise calculations required for each stream are handled automatically.

Instead of admitting you got the wrong end of the stick you then tried covering your tracks beginning with this.

DjHellfire said:

Uh, yeah, we can rest it because it says the exact same **** I said, except is mentions aux tracks which I purposely did not touch on because of how complicated the math can get and I didn't feel like typing about it! What the hell is your point?

But that is not what you said is it, and aux tracks is irrelevant to this point. They are mentioned only as part of the process of mixing. I quote again where you disagree with the Logic manual, me, and the software engineers OH, and every music software programmer on the planet.

Dj Hellfire said:

2. Again, incorrect! The track putting out 1000 samples of delay has ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT on the other tracks

Until you admit that latency induced by plugins is not different on a track by track basis, meaning one track can be 10,000 samples late, but another track (and for this purpose lets assume its Ren with 30 samples of delay) your point is there is no effect on the Ren track. We cannot move forward until you take responsibility for getting it wrong about how ADC/latency works. I dont know if your trying to protect you status as an 8000+ poster and quite frankly I dont care. What I care about is the truth.

Lampdog,

Go to my first post, thats number six on page one and tell me one thing I said there that's wrong. I havent shifted position from what I said. I actually took it for granted anyone with some decent experience would know this. I was definitely wrong on that wasnt I.

this is not about point scoring or ego, this is about the Truth.

My final statement....when a user tells me they have problems, I take it at face value. Labcoats and Retrofreak have been talking about their issues. I replied, based upon the info given, its your computer, CPU, sound card, drivers, method of working, lack of fully understanding the limitations of computer/software based systems, etc. etc. However you want to spin it...adjust the way you work within the confines of the technology you are using. If that means you can't write, mix, and master at the same time....deal with it. Talking about the same thing on several pages will not change the fact you need to adjust or use different products.