latency!.....is my concern with Renaissance

Jah, do I need to quote the many innaccuracies you have posted all over this thread. Even now you still dont get it.

Actually your pretty funny and contradict your self constantly. Theres a post on another thread where you state Im pretty much a hardware man yet your here dishing out advice (inaccurate of course) for all to see in how to use computers. Like the proverbial Cliche your advice was to tell the poster their wrong and they need to get a much faster computer

I was working in the box without any hardware whatsoever from 2001 up until last year when I started buying hardware again. I used to even calculate delays manually...I know what latency can do and how it can affect the player badly.....depending on how they work of course.

Well Lmapdog this drama for me is about truth nothing else. If its entertainment for others or drama, I don't care. if one person learns something from the truth I speak Ive done my job. There is far to much inaccurate stuff on music forums. Its at epidemic proportions now and I am not the only one saying this, We have a duty, no?

Anyway, this is my last post in the subject. Usually I would go to the bitter end but as I'm new here I will bow out and just hope that any noobs in the future who come across this post as they search for a solution to their latency problem don't rush out there and buy the fastest computer they can find.

It was fun though

Also, just to point out, this is nothing personal. I don't feel disrespected and am not intentionally disrespecting you. If you refer to the infamous "Elitist" thread, you'll know when I'm coming for your head!

labcoats wrote:Ok, you arrived on the thread and called out Retrofreak for saying as a user of Maschine he experiences latency. You were having none of it and told him just as Jah did that the problem is with him or his setup. I have explained to you and Jah in detail manhy times the problem were talking about is nothing to do with how powerful a computer is. This point you have failed to understand from the word go.

You constantly repeat VIs have no latency when in fact they do, but its so low its totally unnoticeable. But, I will let you have the VIs have no latency which will hopefully make you stop repeating the same thing over and over and getting bogged down on the wrong point. I repeat a VI its self is not the problem.

Until you admit that latency induced by plugins is not different on a track by track basis, meaning one track can be 10,000 samples late, but another track (and for this purpose lets assume its Ren with 30 samples of delay) your point is there is no effect on the Ren track. We cannot move forward until you take responsibility for getting it wrong about how ADC/latency works. I dont know if your trying to protect you status as an 8000+ poster and quite frankly I dont care. What I care about is the truth.

I see where your confusion is coming. You are assuming that I am referring to or suggestion actually making a beat while ADC is ON AND while its compensating all the tracks to sync with an inefficient plugin. This is NOT what I'm saying and why I say you need to go back and READ. Reading is FUNDAMENTAL!

DJ Hellfire wrote:

Retrofreak wrote:Playing live, with delay compensation

You couldn't. Which is why I'm saying no plugin maker would make a professional VI that induced any latency. Doesn't make sense. Show me one virtual instrument plugin that causes extra latency! I have close to probably 15 different VI's and not a single one of them causes latency.

DJ Hellfire wrote:I'll say this AGAIN! I personally have several RTAS and VST VI plugins and none of them induce ANY latency into my sessions. All report back 0 samples of delay. Not talking about effects plugins, but virtual instrument plugins. And I have of course all the stock Avid VI's, Trilogy, SampleTank, Philharmonik, Reason, Absynth, Garritan, Atmosphere, Kontakt, to name a few! None cause delay. Infact, I don't see how they would even make any VI plugins that would cause delay. Even with Delay Compensation, you still couldn't play through them, since only all the other tracks are being delayed to line up with the already delayed VI. Doesn't seem to make sense that a plugin manufacturer would sell a professional plugin that you can't even play, unless it was designed for a TDM based system (which aren't affected by plugin latency), which I'm sure most of us here are not using!

And an additional response to Retrofreak, MPC's can't even load VST's, so that really shouldn't even be in the equation. Internal brain to internal brain, MPC's and Maschine have virtually the exact same response time, as far as what most humans can even detect, provided your Maschine audio settings are correct. Like I said, mine is pulling only 4.5ms of latency and feels nowhere near less responsive than any of the 3 MPC's I've owned!

I said that EVEN if his VI's were infact causing delay (which I don't believe they are), then trying to use delay compensation to straighten it all out will NOT work during the creation process because EVERYTHING will be delayed to line up with that out of sync track. It's right there in bold for you. I don't know how Logic works, but in Pro Tools (which Retro said he and his brother use), the high latency tracks DO NOT get shifted forward. EVERYTHING else get's shifted back. So you CANNOT make a beat with ADC on to compensate for a delay pluging because every note you push through the plugin and every sample you send through your other audio tracks will be delayed. I DO NOT condone and DID NOT suggest making a beat with ADC on because that is just stupid!

I NEVER once said that system buffer affect's plugin latency. In fact, I have said the COMPLETE opposite MULTIPLE times and you keep over looking it. The ONE SIMPLE POINT I was making in the beginning is that if you have an adequate computer, an adequate sound card with the correct drivers, and the correct buffer settings, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE LATENCY ISSUES WITH MASCHINE/REN, even with VI's that DO NOT induce latency. I did not say that having state of the art gear will remove plugin latency. That would be just plain dumb. But you seem to be on this MISSION to prove me wrong that you are over looking what I am actually saying. I didn't not say your manual was wrong, I said YOU are either wrong, don't understand your manual, or are just not reading/comprehending what I'm saying.

And the only reason I even MENTIONED ADC is the first place is because of what you and Damien were talking about here on page 1:

damien907 wrote:

labcoats wrote:Here me now!

Sorry to be so forceful but enough of the nonsense that latency wont affect how you interact with this machine or any VST or pad controller....

you are aware that when during recording you want your buffer setting to be lower like 64 or 128 samples, and during the mix stage you want it to be higher 512 or 1024 right?

i do understand about some plugins introducing latency to tracks, but thats not the same thing as people are talking about with a pad controller.

when you have a "latency inducing plugin", it will have a certain number of samples it will set you audio track back, but there are ways to figure out how many samples each plugin delays a track and you can move it back manually, IF your daw has no automatic delay compensation. (ie protools m-powered or LE)

if your daw has automatic delay compensation enabled, this shouldent be such a huge issue.

but for the people that think the latency is that big of a deal with their mpds, or controllers, just turn your buffer up in your audio settings and use a good soundcard.

Now I'll repeat myself one last time for you so you hopefully get it. My WHOLE point was to say that again, ADC is NOT going to help you if you somehow came across a magical VI that causes latency on your track and should not even be turned on while making a beat. It shouldn't even be turned on until AFTER you've tracked your beat and begun mixing/mastering.

Yet you keep saying VI's have latency. That little unnoticeable bit you are talking about DOES NOT count. It's a non factor and shouldn't even be mentioned. If it's not enough to pickup even 1 sample on the DLY meter, it's not even worth mentioning! It's a really petty and useless point to even try to make, since Maschine/Ren/MPC/MV itself will have similarly minuscule delays due to the fact that they are technically VI's them selves!

It's like if I paid $999.99 for my tv. No one's gonna actually tell people they paid $999.99. Most people are gonna say hey, I paid $1000 for the TV. Just the same with the VI. No ones gonna go around forums saying hey, this VI has only 0.60 ms of delay, and this one only has 0.09 ms, and this one has 0.85 ms. No! You're gonna simply say these VI cause no delay!

So again, one last time to make sure you completely understand my original point. If you have an adequate computer, an adequate sound card with the correct drivers, and the correct buffer settings, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE LATENCY ISSUES WITH MASCHINE/REN/MPC's/MV's/MPD's, even with VI's that DO NOT induce latency. In an environment with no ADC, which Maschine/Pro Tools 8 does not have (and Ren probably won't either) or an environment where ADC is turned off (which it should be during production), a high latency plugin track is not going to effect any other track in the session. Period!

EDIT:
After going back and reading your sixth post on page one, it seems you are on such a mission to prove me wrong that you don't even realize we're both saying the same shit!

In fact, the only thing I disagree with you on in that post really is the use of effects plugins while making the beat. I personally never work this way. Coming from an MPC, which has no real effects (other the the weak shit in the 2500), I always create and track first, mix and add effects last. So with Maschine and Reason, I do the same thing. No effects plugins until the audio is in Pro Tools! Equals no latency issues for me!

Also, you say you like adding effects while making the beat but can't with software because of the latency. So I'm assuming you are able to achieve this with the MPC and other hardware? You must have a bunch of sweet outboard effects gear that rivals the many choices of effects plugins then? Unless you are talking about the MPC's lackluster built-in effects or whatever effects are built into your hardware sound modules?

Ok,

I tried this again today and :

1. The more VST's I have running live in PT9 the more I have to adjust the buffer settings from 32/64/128/256, which causes overall lag when hitting the MPC 3000/5000 pads.

2. If I don't do the above the session either won't play, sound glitchy or will keep locking up on occasion.

3. Maschine randomly suffers from number 2, sometimes it's rectified by a reboot, maybe it's a bug?.


I'm not hear to argue, I'm just looking for a solution to a reality that plagues a lot of users who play live into DAWs as I do.

I do hope that with todays technical advancements DAW buffer size, ADC and Latency issues, could be a thing of the past.

I just want to make glitch free music that offers similar stability to my trusty MPC collection.

I've conceded with the digital sound, but I refuse to let erratic timing and software bugginess slide as it kills my vibe.

Retrofreak wrote:Ok,

I tried this again today and :

1. The more VST's I have running live in PT9 the more I have to adjust the buffer settings from 32/64/128/256, which causes overall lag when hitting the MPC 3000/5000 pads.

2. If I don't do the above the session either won't play, sound glitchy or will keep locking up on occasion.

3. Maschine randomly suffers from number 2, sometimes it's rectified my a reboot, maybe it's buggy?.


I'm not hear to argue, I'm just looking for a solution to a reality that plagues a lot of users who play live into DAWs as I do.

I do hope that with todays technical advancements DAW buffer size, ADC and Latency issues, could be a thing of the past.

I just want to make glitch free music that offers similar stability to my trusty MPC collection.

I've conceded with the digital sound, but I refuse to let erratic timing slide as it kills my vibe.

1. Yes, I understand this. What I am saying is this delay is not due to the instrument plugins. It's due to you increasing the buffer and raising system latency to avoid the errors, which is a different scenario than plugin delay. Now, like I was saying, virtual instruments use A LOT of ram, and since Pro Tools is still 32-bit, you're out of RAM by the time you load your 3rd or 4th instrument since Pro Tools has a 4GB limit, which some single instruments can use alone. Sure you can instantiate a bunch like I did in my example, but once you start playing through all of them, they are gonna murder your RAM. Doesn't mean the plugins themselves are causing latency. And again, just in case you are, you should not be using inefficient procession plugins in addition to your instruments because that will cause delay on the actual track. This RAM limitation by 32-bit Pro Tools is a HUGE complaint by many PT users and has been since computers started becoming powerful enough to handle the load, which is why a lot of them resort to rewiring Reaper into Pro Tools as a VI host. But this takes too much setting up and kills the mood IMO. But again, this is completely different than actual plugin latency. Like I said, once you get 1-3 melodies down, record their audio to audio tracks for 4-8 bars (however long your sequence is) and make the VST's inactive to free up resources. Just sync your MPC to control playback of Pro Tools and set Pro Tools to loop the audio you just recorded so that it plays back with the MPC just as if you had the VST's running. Then move on to more VST's and melodies and repeat until you're done. Once you finish the beat. You can then MAX OUT the buffer, reactivate all (or as much as your highest buffer will allow at once) the VST plugins and track all the instruments. The high buffer does not affect where the audio is recorded on the timeline. It only dictates how soon or late you hear the audio. But even at high buffers, your audio will still record sample accurate. It's just difficult to actually play instruments to high buffers, but you can track a beat (not vocals) through a high buffer. When they finally go 64-bit in Pro Tools 11, this shouldn't be an issue.

2 & 3. Like I mentioned earlier, the issue is due do the 32-bit app architecture (which is different than plugin latency). Maschine comes in 32-bit and 64-bit. The only issue is that many of your VI's are most likely on 32-bit, which won't load in the 64-bit Maschine app. Most of my VI's are 32-bit only. However, with 64-bit instruments (like Kontakt and most NI stuff) and enough ram to handle it (8-16GB), you shouldn't have any audio drop out issues in Maschine 64-bit standalone, especially with an i7. You might need to raise the buffer to 128 max, but you should still be able to play accurately at 128. I can. However, I wouldn't even bother trying to play through 256 or higher. But with an i7, good amount of RAM, and 64-bit apps, you should be able to get by on 64 with a decent amount of instruments loaded.

In addition you may need to disable background services that mooch system resources, like your internet browser, antivirus, and other non essential services. There are also system optimization Avid suggests you do to your computer to give PT the most available resources.

And yeah, I know you're not arguing. Just trying to help out you understanding the different in latency caused by actual plugins and latency cause by increased session buffers! Two totally different things.

OK thanks for that, looks like I'll have to track out quicker or switch my DAW until Avid pull their fingers out.

Retrofreak wrote:OK thanks for that, looks like I'll have to track out quicker or switch my DAW until Avid pull their fingers out.

They've started the 64-bit transformation with the introduction of AAX plugins in Pro Tools 10. AAX plugins are 64-bit ready. RTAS plugins are not 64-bit compatible and are being phased out, as well as TDM systems. HD guys will have to move on to HDX in Pro Tools 11.

Damn...just think of the track you guys would each have if instead of a keystroke, it was a pad hit...

b.read wrote:Damn...just think of the track you guys would each have if instead of a keystroke, it was a pad hit...

Most of mine is copy and paste since I've been saying the same shit over and over!

Ah...well copy and paste still counts for, I'd say- three pad hits.

b.read wrote:Ah...well copy and paste still counts for, I'd say- three pad hits.

LMAO!

Whats a plugin? I shy away from computers cos of hardware sequences usually being enough for me. Dont get me wrong i so can see the benefit of computers. Make great multitrack recorders dont they!
With all the talk of latency, I think its also alot to do with your serial bus as well. I mean it depends on the bottlenecks inherent in your hardware. Is the serial bus shared or seperate bus from the mother board, is it implimented well or is it congested by other devices. USB2 is fine i guess for 4 track through and midi.

bliprock wrote:Whats a plugin? I shy away from computers cos of hardware sequences usually being enough for me. Dont get me wrong i so can see the benefit of computers. Make great multitrack recorders dont they!
With all the talk of latency, I think its also alot to do with your serial bus as well. I mean it depends on the bottlenecks inherent in your hardware. Is the serial bus shared or seperate bus from the mother board, is it implimented well or is it congested by other devices. USB2 is fine i guess for 4 track through and midi.

I'm gonna assume that question is serious. A plugin is basically a virtual effect or instrument/synthesizer. They typically model the sound/function of actual vintage hardware models of EQ's, Compressors, Reverbs, Drum Machines, Sound Modules, etc. It's basically like taking a studio full of vintage outboard gear, and stuffing it all into one computer. However, aside of interface hardware or system latency, some plugins can be very inefficient or very taxing on your processor and system resources, which can cause a plugin to induce it's own latency (separate from what the system already has) to the track you place it on and this causes that track to play later than the rest of the tracks. These plugins that cause these high latencies are typically high quality plugins that actually looks ahead at the audio before it processes. Some examples are certain eq/compressors/limiters, pitch shift, reverbs, etc! A typical echo/delay plugin or virtual instrument wont suffer from this. Also, you can insert actual hardware effects as plugins as well.

sorry Hellfire. you missed my sarcasm. But thanks anyways for giving me the low down. Yeah I like some of what I have seen like waves bundles and UAD as well. very nice. Not much latency with my hardware though so not really swayed to be doing anything ITB. Which is interesting actually now i think about it. I have seperate outs running through fx and compressos, back into mpc, so its same setup as what you are talking about with the Ren in a way, but you would be using the compter to do all the plug in fx and stuff to samlple.
So it seems neat, but yeah im not swayed away from hardware setup. Ren is not for people like me, as its computer based really. But then there are not many people left like me that use only harware, so they will selll lots.