Saint Joe At Akai Stand

MPC-Tutor wrote:

JAH wrote: The MPC 5000 is a good MPC. It could use an update to fix some minor things. But it is still provides you everything you need in an MPC. It doesn't need a bunch of OS updates adding new features...

For me, if I buy something, I buy it for the features it has, I don't buy it for features it may or may not have in the future. I appreciate that for the manufacturer, it is not a sustainable business model to just keep updating a product for free after that initial purchase. So while I think it's great to discuss 'feature requests', I see that as a bit of fun or just a way to give the developers ideas for future products - I do not expect those features to appear in the product I just purchased.

However, I do expect the existing features to function as advertised. So, if there are bugs, I expect them fixed promptly. I don't want to be looking at the device three years down the line and still wondering if the existing bugs will ever be fixed.

Great point! But at the same time, it's impossible to know every single feature it has, or lacks, until you actually buy and use it. Sure you can do all the research you want, but it's nothing like some good in-depth hands on experience. Like Maschine advertises Drag & Drop and they advertise SP1200/MPC 60 vintage modes. All nice and attractive features. But what they don't tell you is that if you drag and drop a sound with vintage mode applied, the vintage mode effect does not carry over with the audio. Just little shit like that they reel you in with and leave you hanging! Or like how the newer MPC's didn't have stereo chop shop. As a consumer looking at features, I would just be looking at "oooh, chop shop." I wouldn't be thinking to research whether or not chop shop works with stereo samples. I would just assume that it would. Wouldn't even cross my mind as a thought honestly.

MPC-Tutor wrote:

JAH wrote: The MPC 5000 is a good MPC. It could use an update to fix some minor things. But it is still provides you everything you need in an MPC. It doesn't need a bunch of OS updates adding new features...

For me, if I buy something, I buy it for the features it has, I don't buy it for features it may or may not have in the future. I appreciate that for the manufacturer, it is not a sustainable business model to just keep updating a product for free after that initial purchase. So while I think it's great to discuss 'feature requests', I see that as a bit of fun or just a way to give the developers ideas for future products - I do not expect those features to appear in the product I just purchased.

However, I do expect the existing features to function as advertised. So, if there are bugs, I expect them fixed promptly. I don't want to be looking at the device three years down the line and still wondering if the existing bugs will ever be fixed.

co-sign!

DJ Hellfire wrote:

MPC-Tutor wrote:

JAH wrote: The MPC 5000 is a good MPC. It could use an update to fix some minor things. But it is still provides you everything you need in an MPC. It doesn't need a bunch of OS updates adding new features...

For me, if I buy something, I buy it for the features it has, I don't buy it for features it may or may not have in the future. I appreciate that for the manufacturer, it is not a sustainable business model to just keep updating a product for free after that initial purchase. So while I think it's great to discuss 'feature requests', I see that as a bit of fun or just a way to give the developers ideas for future products - I do not expect those features to appear in the product I just purchased.

However, I do expect the existing features to function as advertised. So, if there are bugs, I expect them fixed promptly. I don't want to be looking at the device three years down the line and still wondering if the existing bugs will ever be fixed.

Great point! But at the same time, it's impossible to know every single feature it has, or lacks until you actually buy and use it. Sure you can do all the research you want, but it's nothing like some good in-depth hands on experience. Like Maschine advertises Drag & Drop and they advertise SP1200/MPC 60 vintage modes. All nice and attractive features. But what they don't tell you is that if you drag and drop a sound with vintage mode applied, the vintage mode effect does not carry over with the audio. Just little shit like that they reel you in with and leave you hanging!

Good point as well. To buy a product like Maschine, I'd really need as much time as I could get on it while the return policy is still honored, because if I came across overhyped features that were half implemented, I'd wanna get my money back ASAP and find what's right for my setup.

DJ Hellfire wrote:Why wait a year just to BUY another OS to use my $2700 machine to it's full potential because Akai dropped the ball?

Nobody made you buy the machine before the bugs were fixed. If you wanted to know the bug status, all you had to do was wait and read the forums... That's what I did. In fact that's what I always do. Nobody has a gun to your head. If the water ain't right, then don't jump in. Its on you for not checking the water...

$2700 though? What gear were we discussing again?

DJ Hellfire wrote:My G37 is cheap for what it is. It's a fully loaded sports sedan with Nav, stock 14" mono block caliper big brake kit front and rear, sport suspension, sport heated seats, Bose 3 sub audio, 330 horsepower, and more. To get a comparable ride from BMW, Benz, or Lexus, I'd have to spend another $10K-20k. So yeah, my car is cheap for what you get, but $40,000 is still a lot of money.

Okay yeah, cost. Value is what I'm talking about though. For $1000 you get a stock MPC1000. For $1114 you get an amazing next level hardware machine.

DJ Hellfire wrote:We ALREADY paid for the machine, which should have the software development and maintenance accounted for in it's price. I shouldn't have to go pay someone else to pick up the slack to use my machine to it's full potential when it's hardware architecture clearly supports a better OS.

That's where you're mistaken. The price factors in a certain level of development and maintenance. Not unlimited support. The real world just doesn't work that way.

Now whether or not you got what you paid for is another debate entirely, and I tend to agree when a manufacturer doesn't take their gear to the finish line. But what I'm saying is your expectations are skewed if you think Akai shouldn't have stopped until they fixed every single flaw. As an electronics user, I would want that, but realistically speaking, that can't always happen. So my approach is to jump in when the water is right...

As for full potential: if we had access to source code for any given piece of gear, then we could take it way beyond where it currently is. So I'm not really getting the relevance of 'potential' to this discussion. Because, by your argument, every piece of electronics we own has heaps of untapped potential. Including your pocket calculator.

DJ Hellfire wrote:Akai screwing JJ over has nothing to do with me. But I still state that if he hadn't release JJOS, Akai still wouldn't have made any improvements, as shown with the 5K. I don't think they're slacking cuz JJ exists. They are just slacking, or no longer concerned about their hardware customers.

Perhaps. Its all speculation. JJ wrote the code in the first place, so its JJ's bugs we're discussing here. And being that he knows his code the best, he has the best chance to fix it. Now, given that, you can go to his website and download FOR FREE, his fixes for his bugs that he wasn't given an opportunity to fix while still under the employ of Akai. So problem solved. Who solved it is irrelevant, for those of us who don't live in 'what's fair and right' land or shoulda-coulda-woulda-ville... I'm sorry I'm just a bottom line kinda dude.

But anyway that brings up another issue. This all is direct fallout from Akai nearly going out of business and its IP being acquired by Numark. In situations like that, shit happens. We made out pretty good given all that transpired.

I hear everything you guys are saying. "Some" of you made some valid points. And there is no denying that companies should provide solid support for their products. But the nature of software is that it will never be perfect...never. Don't believe me? Go to any forum dedicated to music production hardware and software and you will see the same types of complaints you read here in this forum. So if you think software is going to be flawless, you may want to leave these types of products alone and save yourself the heartache. *I can give you examples of products I own right now by other companies.

As an MPC fanatic, I hope this forum builds a better relationship with Akai. I would like to see continued development of MPC products and their software.

I am excited about these new products. I will be here in the forum giving extensive reviews, writing feature request threads, comparing new MPCs with the legacy models (to include Maschine)...and actually find some time to create music I can't wait to show off my Forat customized MPC Ren.

what would be cool is if akai allowed all the MP’s that have usb,to operate with the REN sequencer kinda like AKSYS.

rookie wrote:what would be cool is if akai allowed all the MP’s that have usb,to operate with the REN sequencer kinda like AKSYS.

You can always put the hardware MPCs in USB mode and drag-n-drop your files into the MPC Ren/Studio.

mp3 wrote:Nobody made you buy the machine before the bugs were fixed. If you wanted to know the bug status, all you had to do was wait and read the forums... That's what I did. In fact that's what I always do. Nobody has a gun to your head. If the water ain't right, then don't jump in. Its on you for not checking the water...

$2700 though? What gear were we discussing again?

Talking about my 2500. Wife paid retail at GC. I said go to eBay, but she didn't want to. Not everyone one uses a forum tho. It's not just about me. It's not like I talking about buying a machine today, and complaining about the bugs tomorrow. We're talking years of the same bugs, especially with the 5K. It's perfectly ok to buy a new piece of hardware equipment (at least it used to be), especially from a well established company like Akai, and a product with the brand MPC coming off of the 2000XL as the last release, and not be concerned with bugs. I owned an XL, which was the last MPC before the 2500. And my XL had ZERO bugs. So coming into the 2500, I wasn't even aware these things (MPC's) even had bugs, let alone thought to check with a forum before buying.

mp3 wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:We ALREADY paid for the machine, which should have the software development and maintenance accounted for in it's price. I shouldn't have to go pay someone else to pick up the slack to use my machine to it's full potential when it's hardware architecture clearly supports a better OS.

That's where you're mistaken. The price factors in a certain level of development and maintenance. Not unlimited support. The real world just doesn't work that way.

Now whether or not you got what you paid for is another debate entirely, and I tend to agree when a manufacturer doesn't take their gear to the finish line. But what I'm saying is your expectations are skewed if you think Akai shouldn't have stopped until they fixed every single flaw. As an electronics user, I would want that, but realistically speaking, that can't always happen. So my approach is to jump in when the water is right...

As for full potential: if we had access to source code for any given piece of gear, then we could take it way beyond where it currently is. So I'm not really getting the relevance of 'potential' to this discussion. Because, by your argument, every piece of electronics we own has heaps of untapped potential. Including your pocket calculator.

This is a good point, if we were talking about an MPC 60/3000. But we are talking about machines that are barely 5 years old, and at one point WERE STILL BEING SOLD. You can't tell me that it's ethical to give up software development of products that you still sell. That's just bullshit. As for potential, I'm basically referring to things similar to what Just Blazed ripped the 5K apart about. New top of the line MPC's that can't do some of the simple shit older models were able to and some shit that new models should just be able to do. Like global program editing for example. Stereo chop shop. To name a few. These are all things you can only really get familiar with if you buy the product, unless your homeboy has one and let's you use his when you want.

mp3 wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:Akai screwing JJ over has nothing to do with me. But I still state that if he hadn't release JJOS, Akai still wouldn't have made any improvements, as shown with the 5K. I don't think they're slacking cuz JJ exists. They are just slacking, or no longer concerned about their hardware customers.

Perhaps. Its all speculation. JJ wrote the code in the first place, so its JJ's bugs we're discussing here. And being that he knows his code the best, he has the best chance to fix it. Now, given that, you can go to his website and download FOR FREE, his fixes for his bugs that he wasn't given an opportunity to fix while still under the employ of Akai. So problem solved. Who solved it is irrelevant, for those of us who don't live in 'what's fair and right' land or shoulda-coulda-woulda-ville... I'm sorry I'm just a bottom line kinda dude.

Akai shouldn't put themselves in a position to have their show stopped when a single employee get's let go. That's just rubbish. It's their responsibility to have more than one person on staff that is familiar with code. I don't believe the Akai OS fell solely on JJ's shoulders! And he also should not be responsible for fixing the shit when he no longer works for them.

JAH wrote:I hear everything you guys are saying. "Some" of you made some valid points. And there is no denying that companies should provide solid support for their products. But the nature of software is that it will never be perfect...never. Don't believe me? Go to any forum dedicated to music production hardware and software and you will see the same types of complaints you read here in this forum. So if you think software is going to be flawless, you may want to leave these types of products alone and save yourself the heartache. *I can give you examples of products I own right now by other companies.

This is true. But what I'm saying is at least these other companies make an effort to fix shit. But hardware is a little different and I think it should run near perfect, as my XL always has. You can't really compare hardware and software. On hardware, the OS isn't sharing it's living space with other 3rd party software, nor does it have to worry about being compatible with thousands of different variations of host hardware. It's just one brand, one piece of hardware to worry about. No driver issues to worry about. So a hardware product at the prices you pay from an iconic blood line should be just about perfect.

DJ Hellfire wrote:This is true. But what I'm saying is at least these other companies make an effort to fix ****.

.....So a hardware product at the prices you pay from an iconic blood line should be just about perfect.

Really?

Roland Fantom G ($2500). I have owned this keyboard for 4 years. It has had like 2 updates and only one of them was useful...meaning it added multisampling and an undo button. It replaces the Fantom X but Roland stripped down its sampling capabilities. How do you go from haveing 96 chops to only 16? I went from being able to chop and automap to a patch to not having this function at all. It is the worst supporting Roland workstation in history. They gave us ARX card support but then didn't give us only 3 ARX cards ($400+ ea). There are dozens of SRX and JV cards for their other workstations. Roland refuses to update the Fantom G's plugin editor so it will work properly with Window's 7. Roland still sells this keyboard but have no interest in supporting it. Visit http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewforum.php?f=29 to read all other gripes.

Korg Kronos ($3000). I have owned this keyboard for 8 months. It has had 1 update. The Kronos was advertised with plugin capabilities and includes and editor. Korg later retracted that and have yet to make good on it. Build quality and bugs have been a serious headache. My data wheel fell off after using in 2 days and it wouldn't stay in place. Korg secured the data wheel with 2 sided tape. The redesigned the wheel and used velcrow. Numerous users have broken keybeds. My motherboard just died and Korg doesn't have the parts readily available to fix it. So I am without my $3000 workstation. Even with the OS updates, there are a few bugs that need to be addressed. You can visit http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/ ... 8bd80a111d to read other gripes.

DAWs. Take your pick from any of the leading ones and visit their forums. You will see numerous posts about bugs only being fixed via paid updates. I used Nuendo 1 - 4. This was common. Visit http://www.nuendo.com


These are all perfect examples. There are more but I only talk about products that I own.

JAH wrote:I hear everything you guys are saying. "Some" of you made some valid points. And there is no denying that companies should provide solid support for their products. But the nature of software is that it will never be perfect...never.

Oh, I agree, there's always going to be problems with software, that's the nature of the beast. However, I think it helps greatly if the company deals with such issues with a high level of transparency - that's the differentiator. For example, actually publicly acknowledging that the bugs exist, telling the customers what they plan to do about them, letting them know how they are getting on with the solution etc.

Basically openly engaging with their customers over the problems. In these cases, customers tend to be more understanding about the issues the company may be facing in solving the bugs and other issues.

As an MPC fanatic, I hope this forum builds a better relationship with Akai. I would like to see continued development of MPC products and their software.

Agree, 100%.

JAH wrote:

rookie wrote:what would be cool is if akai allowed all the MP’s that have usb,to operate with the REN sequencer kinda like AKSYS.

You can always put the hardware MPCs in USB mode and drag-n-drop your files into the MPC Ren/Studio.

no I’m talkin’bout actually sequencing with my 4k using it instead of say REN (trust me they wont do it I know).honestly they should have had the 5k be able to sequence on screen.But hey we here now. korg had trouble getting parts for the kronos due to the earthquake in japan.

MPC-Tutor wrote:

JAH wrote:I hear everything you guys are saying. "Some" of you made some valid points. And there is no denying that companies should provide solid support for their products. But the nature of software is that it will never be perfect...never.

Oh, I agree, there's always going to be problems with software, that's the nature of the beast. However, I think it helps greatly if the company deals with such issues with a high level of transparency - that's the differentiator. For example, actually publicly acknowledging that the bugs exist, telling the customers what they plan to do about them, letting them know how they are getting on with the solution etc.

Basically openly engaging with their customers over the problems. In these cases, customers tend to be more understanding about the issues the company may be facing in solving the bugs and other issues.

As an MPC fanatic, I hope this forum builds a better relationship with Akai. I would like to see continued development of MPC products and their software.

Agree, 100%.

I agree with every word you said 1000%.

However...the nature of these forums, this one in particular, makes it extremely difficult to have an open dialog. We have members here whose sole purpose for living (it seems) is to be negative regarding anything Numark/Akai. "Hey..we just got a new OS update from JJ! Love you JJ....**** NuKai!" Why would a product specialist spend his/her busy days in an unofficial forum with this rampant behavior? In the past we had an opportunity for open dialog. This was a missed opportunity as the Akai rep was pretty much ran out of the forums.

Korg has an unofficial user's forum. Korg product specialists are active members and do contribute what they can. Although there are similar complaints about certain Korg products, in my opinion, it comes no where close to the frenzy you see here. When the MPC 5000 was released, only a handful of us purchased them. But a majority of the complaints were from individuals that didn't own the MPC 5000. Everyone knows the rest of the story.

To wrap this up....a little respect goes a long way. Nothing will be gained by being disrespectful.

This has been a really good read, thank you all! I think the best would be to direct issues and ideas in a constructive way to akai's community-site. And continue here as usual

JAH wrote:To wrap this up....a little respect goes a long way. Nothing will be gained by being disrespectful.

dude, this demonising of people who have honest conerns is disrespectful.

the majority of posts ive read have been LEGIT questions / concerns about the product that not a single one of us have even used yet - but you come back with 'it must do this', 'it will surely do this', 'since product a does this, product b surely cant do that'.

you have absolutely no solid ground to stand on except your self professed undying, unequivocal, blind love for anything with the name MPC on it.
the irony is - it's that very attitude that makes your objectivity and credibility on the subject totally nonexistent.

based on numarks track record with the mpc line in the last decade, people have a lot of reason to be skeptical.
and based on the amount of expensive, bug-ridden, trendy and boring gear you brag on the internet about, i get the impression you enjoy playing the role of martyr.

sorry man - you had some good posts before this whole debacle but im sick of you belittling anyone who has a different opinion.