Standalone vs Non-Standalone

It dosn't have to be stand alone for ya boi.

JAH wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:Well said Keys! However, I don't think cost even has anything to do with it anymore. Computers are so damn cheap now, it isn't even a factor. ****, what I paid for my computer and Maschine is less than I paid for my 2500. And my computer (I custom built) is comparable to a high end Mac Pro, so it ain't no cheap Dell. But even prefab computers are still fairly cheap and very powerful. MPC Ren with decent built computer, you're still ahead of the game cost wise than what a new hardware model would have costed.

Keys is very on point except for the "late to the party" statement. The Swiss didn't invent the watch.

Mr. Hellfire, suppose Akai named it the MPC Ren because an MPC 6000 is planned in the future. With all the expectations people have for MPCs, the fact that new features have never swayed ol skool MPC 3000/60 users, and the economy...how much do you expect a hybrid MPC to cost?

Keep in mind:
1. MPC 5000 - $1999
2. Tempest - $1999
3. Maschine Drum - $1700
4. Motiif XF - $2399
5. Korg Kronos - $2999
6. Fantom G - $2799
7. Octotrack - $1440
8. Mox6 - $1199
9. M3 - $1899
10. PC3LE6 - $1495
11. Mac Pro - $2300

Where would this product fit price-wise?

I have no idea how to answer your question. What exactly are you asking?

DJ Hellfire wrote:

JAH wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:Well said Keys! However, I don't think cost even has anything to do with it anymore. Computers are so damn cheap now, it isn't even a factor. ****, what I paid for my computer and Maschine is less than I paid for my 2500. And my computer (I custom built) is comparable to a high end Mac Pro, so it ain't no cheap Dell. But even prefab computers are still fairly cheap and very powerful. MPC Ren with decent built computer, you're still ahead of the game cost wise than what a new hardware model would have costed.

Keys is very on point except for the "late to the party" statement. The Swiss didn't invent the watch.

Mr. Hellfire, suppose Akai named it the MPC Ren because an MPC 6000 is planned in the future. With all the expectations people have for MPCs, the fact that new features have never swayed ol skool MPC 3000/60 users, and the economy...how much do you expect a hybrid MPC to cost?

Keep in mind:
1. MPC 5000 - $1999
2. Tempest - $1999
3. Maschine Drum - $1700
4. Motiif XF - $2399
5. Korg Kronos - $2999
6. Fantom G - $2799
7. Octotrack - $1440
8. Mox6 - $1199
9. M3 - $1899
10. PC3LE6 - $1495
11. Mac Pro - $2300

Where would this product fit price-wise?

I have no idea how to answer your question. What exactly are you asking?

If you are taking the time to respond...at least you have to read it.

One more time.....

1. With all the expectations people have for MPCs, the fact that new features have never swayed ol skool MPC 3000/60 users, and the economy...how much do you expect a hybrid MPC to cost?

2. Where would this product fit price-wise compared to the other drum machines and workstations on the market?

Basically the same question....

JAH wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:

JAH wrote:
Keys is very on point except for the "late to the party" statement. The Swiss didn't invent the watch.

Mr. Hellfire, suppose Akai named it the MPC Ren because an MPC 6000 is planned in the future. With all the expectations people have for MPCs, the fact that new features have never swayed ol skool MPC 3000/60 users, and the economy...how much do you expect a hybrid MPC to cost?

Keep in mind:
1. MPC 5000 - $1999
2. Tempest - $1999
3. Maschine Drum - $1700
4. Motiif XF - $2399
5. Korg Kronos - $2999
6. Fantom G - $2799
7. Octotrack - $1440
8. Mox6 - $1199
9. M3 - $1899
10. PC3LE6 - $1495
11. Mac Pro - $2300

Where would this product fit price-wise?

I have no idea how to answer your question. What exactly are you asking?

If you are taking the time to respond...at least you have to read it.

One more time.....

1. With all the expectations people have for MPCs, the fact that new features have never swayed ol skool MPC 3000/60 users, and the economy...how much do you expect a hybrid MPC to cost?

2. Where would this product fit price-wise compared to the other drum machines and workstations on the market?

Basically the same question....

I read it, but it seems like a really elaborate way to ask a simple question. Being that the list on the 5000 is $3500, and was actually selling for $2500-2700 just 3 years ago (not $1999), a new "hybrid" would probably have an MSRP of $4000-4500 and actually go for around $3000. Maybe a little high, but definitely not lower than what the 5000 was selling for when it first released. I don't think the economy really has a say in their pricing points as much as current other comparable gear on the market does. This is clearly shown in the pricing of the Studio being basically the same as Maschine, and also why companies like Avid are charging $1000 for a Pro Tools 10 HD Upgrade.

So my point is that the cost of having a software integrated setup, as Keys pointed out, is not even a factor in keeping the "hardware guys" away from wanting to integrate by adopting a product like Ren, since Ren paired with a decent custom built rig would cost the same or less than a hardware MPC.

DJ Hellfire wrote:

I read it, but it seems like a really elaborate way to ask a simple question. Being that the list on the 5000 is $3500, and was actually selling for $2500-2700 just 3 years ago (not $1999), a new "hybrid" would probably have an MSRP of $4000-4500 and actually go for around $3000. Maybe a little high, but definitely not lower than what the 5000 was selling for when it first released. I don't think the economy really has a say in their pricing points as much as current other comparable gear on the market does. This is clearly shown in the pricing of the Studio being basically the same as Maschine, and also why companies like Avid are charging $1000 for a Pro Tools 10 HD Upgrade.

So my point is that the cost of having a software integrated setup, as Keys pointed out, is not even a factor in keeping the "hardware guys" away from wanting to integrate by adopting a product like Ren, since Ren paired with a decent custom built rig would cost the same or less than a hardware MPC.

You basically summed up what I have been saying for awhile. The only difference is that you believe there is a market for a $3000 drum machine...and I don't. I would buy it but I don't think anyone would be in a rush to get it....not in this forum. And there are plenty of producers that are happy using their older MPCs. I direct you to the forum search engine and insert "MPC 2500, 4000, and 5000" to locate threads around the time these products were released.

I won't debate economics but I can refer you to some books to help you re-evaluate your statement.

A high-quality, powerful, and lower cost MPC is the best move...IMHO.

DJ Hellfire wrote:a new "hybrid" would probably have an MSRP of $4000-4500 and actually go for around $3000.

I can't see how a few extra components would more than double the price? Everything is in place within the Ren minus processing power and storage, so the bulk of the costing has already been covered.

Just to further the Apple analogy that's been floated around today....

The component breakdown of the 64GB iPhone 4S comes in at $245, with the A5 chip costing Apple $15. Obviously Apple sell in the millions whereas Akai sell in the thousands, but all these smartphones and tablets run on slightly modified 'off the shelf' ARM processors. It's not inconceivable that Akai could have easily AND cheaply made a true hybrid that didn't cost the earth.

JAH wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:

I read it, but it seems like a really elaborate way to ask a simple question. Being that the list on the 5000 is $3500, and was actually selling for $2500-2700 just 3 years ago (not $1999), a new "hybrid" would probably have an MSRP of $4000-4500 and actually go for around $3000. Maybe a little high, but definitely not lower than what the 5000 was selling for when it first released. I don't think the economy really has a say in their pricing points as much as current other comparable gear on the market does. This is clearly shown in the pricing of the Studio being basically the same as Maschine, and also why companies like Avid are charging $1000 for a Pro Tools 10 HD Upgrade.

So my point is that the cost of having a software integrated setup, as Keys pointed out, is not even a factor in keeping the "hardware guys" away from wanting to integrate by adopting a product like Ren, since Ren paired with a decent custom built rig would cost the same or less than a hardware MPC.

The only difference is that you believe there is a market for a $3000 drum machine...and I don't.

Where'd you get that? Now you're just throwing words in my mouth. I DON'T think there is a market for a $3000 drum machine which is why NI, and now Akai, have obviously gone the route they went! Not to mention, future and advancement in technology.

As far as the economics comment, it has a say in the overall pricing of any goods. But economics alone is NOT what companies base their prices on. Competition is one of the main determining factors of price. Because there is still a lot of shit that ain't any cheaper just because the economy is bad!

Coz wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:a new "hybrid" would probably have an MSRP of $4000-4500 and actually go for around $3000.

1. I can't see how a few extra components would more than double the price? Everything is in place within the Ren minus processing power and storage, so the bulk of the costing has already been covered.

2. Just to further the Apple analogy that's been floated around today....

The component breakdown of the 64GB iPhone 4S comes in at $245, with the A5 chip costing Apple $15. Obviously Apple sell in the millions whereas Akai sell in the thousands, but all these smartphones and tablets run on slightly modified 'off the shelf' ARM processors. It's not inconceivable that Akai could have easily AND cheaply made a true hybrid that didn't cost the earth.

1. MPC Ren $1299 (this is the price from the manufacturers mouth, not the street dealer) vs MPC 5000 $3500 list. I doubt only 3 years passing by is enough to have such a significant decrease in price of the "flagship" model.

Think about it, the Ren doesn't really have to do any work except send midi messages. That's it. It does 0 computing or processing or ram caching. Plus, there is no longer onboard 8 outs or effects since it's all in the software now. And software is probably so cheaper since they can most likely just copy code from any existing production software and just tweak it for there purposes.

2. While this is true, you know what the cost is for that 64B 4S if you don't have a contract upgrade? Around $850. I know they can make a hybrid, but do you really think it will sell for what Maschine or anything comparable is selling for? Hell, BT was $1500 and is just now coming down, and they don't even have the rep or customer base Akai has. So you know a true hybrid MPC would be close to $3000. Would be nice, but with the vast majority of people integrated with computers now-a-days, just wouldn't have been practical, IMO. I don't think there is enough demand for a new standalone sampler anymore! And most people ain't trying spend that bread. Especially the new kids coming in to production who can get an MPD for $200 and a cracked Reason 5 and bang shit out on they moms computer and still have $2800 for Jordans!

Also, think about it from this perspective. Maschine is obviously their main target with this new line of MPC's. Now I'm sure they could have easily came out with a true hybrid that woulda **** Maschine's day all the way up. However, there is no way they could price it to really remain competitive. I think most people in this day and age would say, you know, that new MPC sure looks nice, but **** it, Maschine is only $600 and go with that. And they woulda had a bunch of nice units being outsold by Maschine. And the Ren at $1299 is already pushing that competitive pricing line. Luckily they have the Studio. While we are on the studio, do you think it could be made to be only 1" thick if it were a hybrid, let alone only $600, especially with beat thang at $999? Because remember, not everyone needs portability, not everyone needs standalone, not everyone samples, not everyone needs timestretch, etc. Some people do, but today, most don't!

I think a hybrid would be best to do at a later time after this current line has taken off and has proven successful.

DJ Hellfire wrote:1. MPC Ren $1299 (this is the price from the manufacturers mouth, not the street dealer) vs MPC 5000 $3500 list. I doubt only 3 years passing by is enough to have such a significant decrease in price of the "flagship" model.

Think about it, the Ren doesn't really have to do any work except send midi messages. That's it. It does 0 computing or processing or ram caching. Plus, there is no longer onboard 8 outs or effects since it's all in the software now. And software is probably so cheaper since they can most likely just copy code from any existing production software and just tweak it for there purposes.

2. While this is true, you know what the cost is for that 64B 4S if you don't have a contract upgrade? Around $850. I know they can make a hybrid, but do you really think it will sell for what Maschine or anything comparable is selling for? Hell, BT was $1500 and is just now coming down, and they don't even have the rep or customer base Akai has. So you know a true hybrid MPC would be close to $3000. Would be nice, but with the vast majority of people integrated with computers now-a-days, just wouldn't have been practical, IMO. I don't think there is enough demand for a new standalone sampler anymore! And most people ain't trying spend that bread. Especially the new kids coming in to production who can get an MPD for $200 and a cracked Reason 5 and bang shit out on they moms computer and still have $2800 for Jordans!

I think the main problem is the standalone software will be very desirable (if stable) and end up being cracked, and will ultimately cost Akai money. There's a large user base of pre-existing MPC users who can foresee the software alone being very useful, and this is something that NI didn't have to factor in because Maschine was a completely fresh product to the market.

Making the Ren a true hybrid wouldn't exactly solve these issues, but it would give thousands of users the excuse to ditch their ageing MPs in favour of the new range.

Yeah. True. But I would think they could easily make only the hardware standalone and make the software require the hardware like pro tools used to do. But hen people would just have something else to be upset and complain about! I can see it now: "**** you akai. Why the software gotta be locked to your wack hardware? Why can't I use my maschine controller with your software?"

DJ Hellfire wrote:Where'd you get that? Now you're just throwing words in my mouth. I DON'T think there is a market for a $3000 drum machine which is why NI, and now Akai, have obviously gone the route they went! Not to mention, future and advancement in technology.

I need coffee

I thought you implied that there is a market for a $3000 drum machine. My baaddd.

@Coz
I don't think long time users will just ditch their "aging" MPCs. In fact, I am looking for an MPC 2500 (or even a 3000) in addition to the MPC Ren.

DJ Hellfire wrote:I keep seeing people complain about lack of standalone with the new line. But I just feel like, who gives a ****?! 90% of people that make beats now-a-days are making them right next to a computer anyway, or later ending up with the beat in the computer. I think if you're not taking advantage of computer integrated production then you really don't even need a brand new MPC. You should be fine with the MPC you already have. I personally don't think there's really any further they could have taken a hardware only MPC that any current MPC can't do, other than adding non-destructive chop and q-link chopping (JJ excluded). Those two features, to me, aren't really worth making a whole new hardware MPC. The fact that the new line will read your old machines data is enough. You can easily use your old MPC as standalone/travel and load your project into the Ren later.

Bottom line is, I don't think the Ren in standalone mode could really do much more than the 1000/2500/5000 can do. Plus, it's looking like you are gonna be able to do just about anything from the controller anyway. So having a USB cable connecting won't be any different that having a power cable connected. Just turn your monitor off.

Anyway, do you care about standalone or not? If so, why is it important for you?

Damn I was going to come on here and say the exact same thing Anyways I feel it doesn't matter if someone wants standalone just buy a used mpc wtf!

Was I the only one who realized that even though you may need to have the computer hooked up to the Ren/Studio you DON'T have to look at the computer screen to use the software completely???? The hardware controls it all, at least on the Ren. The LCD screen shows everything the computer screen does.

One might even say that's........ STANDALONE


YOU HARDWARE PURISTS ARE LIKE BEATMAKING MORMONS. YOUR IDEALS ARE ALL MESSED UP

ansiaaa wrote:I'd have liked it to be standalone, but I understand the choice to make it like Maschine.

the only thing that bothers me is that it won't be like that, since it has already been said that for some thing you will NEED to watch the computer screen... (ex. when editing samples, you'll see the waveform only on the comp screen)

cmon, on Maschine you can even control VST's on the 2 lcd screens!

HELLFIRE, i'm in the same state of mind as you are in....I dont care about standalone (typical mpc standalone)

however, i think ansiaaa makes a valid point.

if akai can't make the controller "turn monitor off standalone" then all we really have is a redesigned mpd controller........

the thing here is, people will use the product differantly weither you like it or not:

1.some will use the controller completely standalone without looking at monitor
2.some will use only monitor
3.some will use hybrid of monitor and controller

I personally think that #3 is what will end up being the choice of most everyone.........however, i can't say that the other 2 points are invalid. differant strokes for differant folks.........

the smart choice is to offer all 3 options. and i think maschine gets that.

wether you are a hardware purist or not does not matter. akai is trying to transition its users from hardware to software hybrid.........so why out the gate remove some basic controller standalone features? like waveform editing? that your comptetitor can already do? wether you like it or not, you have to listen to those hardware standalone users and at bare minimum, try to accomidate some of the features they would like in the new software hybrid to bring them over to the otherside.......otherwise you just lost those users.

HERE is the the annoying part.....none of this is "impossible" to accomplish. Akai can make the controller completely "monitor free" if they want to. they are suppose to be **** the sampler kings arent they?

what if you went to Dr.Dre and said "ill pay whatever for a dope beat" and he says "well, lets start with the basics first, I want to make sure i get the beat right first, then well expand from there" **** no, you go to dre cause he's the best. get the **** out of here dre, you can suck my dick if you say that to me.

we go to akai cause the mpc is suppose to be the best..........


edit: sorry, edited post for grammar and vlugarities...