Standalone vs Non-Standalone

Coz wrote:It cracks me up how you break these discussions down into numbered bullet points H!

Have to! It's easy for dudes to misinterpret what you're saying and twist your words. Plus, it's easier than making all these separate quotes!

Coz wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:If it could have been standalone, what features would you have liked in it that can't be done on a current modern MPC?

In the simplest terms, a full-blown modern MPC but with the extra ability to hook up to a software front end. Kinda like the Ren, but with the ability to go full standalone.

I'm not really into this "make a beat down the beach, or wear your beat machine on a chain" bullshit, but a true standalone or hardware accelerated controller would offer the best of both worlds.

Yeah, it would be dope!

LMAO @ make a beat on the beach!

scoobylol wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:OK, this is all great, but my thing is why do you need a NEW MPC to do all of this? Old ones do it just find. How will having another new hardware MPC help your gig?

You could apply this to so many products, why do we feel we need a new computer half the time? Really we probably don't, it's usually for updated specs and I think that's what a lot of people who want standalone were hoping for with the new series.

Not a change to the existing format of the MPC per se, but upgraded hardware. Faster processors etc... you know usual stuff. But without having to rely on another piece of hardware and drivers, which can be succeptible to playing up.

Personally, standalone to me is very important. The workflow I get between computers and hardware bits are completely different but both have their place of course. It's just sometimes the last thing in the world I want is to have everything switched on. I want to sit in my back garden with a few samples, a cup of tea and a new way of working. Standalone lets me go into a new environment, whereas an iMac... less so. I also find if I use Ableton exclusively time after time I get very stale, very quickly. That's when I go away, re-think and refresh.

Obviously it all comes down to personal preference, and nobody can deny that when it comes to super fast audio editing and polishing a computer is more or less unbeaten. But working on ideas I'd rather have a choice.

This is a very valid point! However, looking at it from Akai's shoes, they having NOTHING on the market like this. And the problem with that is that there is a HUGE market for it, especially with the MPC studio. The fact that you can throw that little shit in a bag next to a little mac book and still have a little room. You couldn't just throw a hybrid MPC Studio in your bag, even if you didn't have a laptop, because a hyrbid Studio would have to be much thicker than 1" and heavier. It'd be like trying to stuff an MPC 1000 in your bag and lugging it on your shoulder! And as far as the Ren, I doubt most people would be taking that big ass 10 pound shit out of the studio anyway even if it was fully standalone.

Nah Hell, dimensions and weight are pretty much irrlevant unless you're a pussy. I mean no offence but I'm a bean pole and I've carried my 1000 with me in a regular bag since the day I got it.

Lets keep this in perspective:

Akai MPC 1000: 3.45 kg (330mm x 75.5mm x 228.2mm)

15" Macbook: 2.54 kg (364mm x 24.1mm x 249mm) + your MPC Studio.

I agree there's a market for integrated controllers but I don't think it's what Akai should be chasing. That market is covered by NI and debateably Novation. Competition is great but Akai are the pioneers and masters of the truly portable hardware sampler solution and I think it makes sense to push that.

Especially when you couple that knowledge with new technology (much like the Teenage Engineering OP-1). You're onto a blinder IMO!

I mean if those guys with their relative inexperience can achieve what they have in that size frame, Akai should be coming with something Studio-sized that is also standalone. There's obviously a demand for it. I mean lest we forget what can be achieved with an iPhone these days!

The other point with standalone is it's not just about saying, ok I'm going to put this in my bag and walk to my mates house. It's that ability to switch up your workflow. A tactile yet limited solution will give you completely different results than the computer, be it sonically or more important structurally.

And I personally would've welcomed with open arms an MPC 1000XL style of machine.

It's not that I don't think these products are good, I mean they're cool, not for me but I can see how they'd work for somebody else. But I don't think Akai are quite nailing the right direction with this new tech just yet.

IMO IMO IMO

if i may -
the beauty of a standalone device vs a computer tethered device is exactly the same thing that some people claim as a problem: limited hardware.

one thing i love about the mpc - i know that i can bang on it, mash buttons, push every little button at any given time, unplug every cord (except the power ;]), use, use, use it and push it to its limit and then keep using it and keep pushing it, and it continues to work.
because those limits are so well defined, and because the software is written specifically with those limits in mind, you really have to try hard to 'break' it.

now with a computer, you've got basically a thousand components, all made by different manufacturers, at different levels of quality control, all with different lifespans, and yet all incredibly tied to each other. i can have two sticks on different ram in my laptop, and when one goes bad, the entire computer is fried until it's fixed. what about the video card? i have another whole range of options.
os? i have a few major choices and then countless sub-choices and modifications i can make to the os - the thing that is supposed to carry everything else.

all these little potentials for error add up - that's math.

not to mention, i think we can agree that the computer hardware market is probably the most saturated with sketchy products.

so the benefit of 'standalone' to me is that (i would hope..but not rely on these days) more care is put into the hardware, because it needs to run when you turn it on. watch what happens when your controller doesn't work: the controller manufacturer is gonna tell you to check everything else first - your os, your other components - and all those manufacturers will tell you it's the controller's problem. its just a blame game because honestly, it could be one of any of those things.

now i know one argument is to use your computer for nothing but this one task - for example only using your computer with your controller for making music. well at that point then you had to buy the damn computer too, but nobody ever factors in the ~$800 for a computer (trying to find a middle ground pricewise) just to run the controller that cost just as much

im not saying that controllers or 'hybrids' are bad pieces of gear, but i have to say i see a lot of benefit in being able to run freely without the need for this 'who-knows-what' attached to it.

Hell yeah man! I lugged my 1000 with me too. I also lugged my 2500 around a couple times before I got the 1000, and it sucked because it was so huge. So I know I ain't lugging a Ren around. That shit will stay right in the studio!

Sure you would have liked a 1000XL, but I don't think there is enough demand for a product like that today. And to survive as a company, they have to go where the money is. I know I personally wouldn't have bought another hardware MPC, and wouldn't really want to pay for one in a hybrid just to have the software integration. For that money I'd just stick with Maschine.

I prefer stand-alone. I don't have a computer in or near my studio. The only thing I use my computer in music production is to rip the CDs I made on the MV and upload them.

I see the advantages with computers but its the limitations of standalone hardware that influence creativity and ingenuity. Not saying CPUs aren't the way but less is always better. Its the same with the dude that got every piece of analog and digital hardware in his studio, he's got all that power but only uses the same three synths and a compressor and everything else is like storaged on racks but powered up. I don't need all that power under my fingertips.

Also, I prefer standalone because I enjoy working for my results instead of short cutting it with a pluggin. I learn and discover new things while I'm on that long road for my sound.

This is coming from me as an artist not a studio engineer who will find the Ren essential to his career and quick to please the clients. As an artist, I'm very experimental and like to go beyond the limitations the hardware can offer and make it do things not supported by the manual. With a PC, is like legalizing weed and buying it from the newsstand. The thrill of ditching cops and traveling to unknown neighborhoods is not there anymore.

Just thought I step and say a mpc that was standalone and hybrid connected would not cost 3 stacks. The 2500/1000 is only a few programming steps away from controlling a dedicated software, and if they assembled a firewire output, then the physical outs issue would be solved, I mean the ren (not hating) really offers no specs that my midi setup with the 4k and reason 6 cant already do, other than the physical outs being limited, all my qlinks are assigned to properly control every rack in reason and layer with the audio in the 4k. I think some ppl are getting hyped up that its hybrid because they never dove into midi and realized what they can really do with their mpc/daw already. I applaud Akai for stepping into the future but some ppl act like this is the greatest invention ever and we haven't even seen it work yet. Its to much hype really, its only improving some of our workflows, its not going to make anyone here's beats better than they were before.

I'd be interested to travel with a fly, but only 4 tracks is pointless, I'd rather copp a 500 honestly, I hope they change that.

Ill-Green wrote:With a PC, is like legalizing weed and buying it from the newsstand. The thrill of ditching cops and traveling to unknown neighborhoods is not there anymore.

id take legalising and over drag-and-drop capability every day

tapedeck wrote:if i may -
the beauty of a standalone device vs a computer tethered device is exactly the same thing that some people claim as a problem: limited hardware.

one thing i love about the mpc - i know that i can bang on it, mash buttons, push every little button at any given time, unplug every cord (except the power ;]), use, use, use it and push it to its limit and then keep using it and keep pushing it, and it continues to work.
because those limits are so well defined, and because the software is written specifically with those limits in mind, you really have to try hard to 'break' it.

now with a computer, you've got basically a thousand components, all made by different manufacturers, at different levels of quality control, all with different lifespans, and yet all incredibly tied to each other. i can have two sticks on different ram in my laptop, and when one goes bad, the entire computer is fried until it's fixed. what about the video card? i have another whole range of options.
os? i have a few major choices and then countless sub-choices and modifications i can make to the os - the thing that is supposed to carry everything else.

all these little potentials for error add up - that's math.

not to mention, i think we can agree that the computer hardware market is probably the most saturated with sketchy products.

so the benefit of 'standalone' to me is that (i would hope..but not rely on these days) more care is put into the hardware, because it needs to run when you turn it on. watch what happens when your controller doesn't work: the controller manufacturer is gonna tell you to check everything else first - your os, your other components - and all those manufacturers will tell you it's the controller's problem. its just a blame game because honestly, it could be one of any of those things.

This a very good POV! And very strong point. However, we have to have to keep in mind that the majority of people already have music computers, or computers that they do music on. Akai has after all been selling MPD's for several years now. So this issue you bring up isn't something new just because the Ren was created. What you bring up has a always been a potential issue for any computer connected audio hardware made in the last 5 years. Computer audio technology would never advance if companies avoided making the products like this just to avoid these potential issues.

tapedeck wrote:now i know one argument is to use your computer for nothing but this one task - for example only using your computer with your controller for making music. well at that point then you had to buy the damn computer too, but nobody ever factors in the ~$800 for a computer (trying to find a middle ground pricewise) just to run the controller that cost just as much

im not saying that controllers or 'hybrids' are bad pieces of gear, but i have to say i see a lot of benefit in being able to run freely without the need for this 'who-knows-what' attached to it.

Well, I did reference the cost of a computer in my first post. But again, the amount of people that will be buying a brand new computer to go with one of these new MPC's is likely close to 0. Again, we are in an age where most people doing music already have a computer they use for music. Those that don't probably have no use/need for a modern/next gen MPC anyway. This same argument can be applied to hardware mutli-track recorders vs software DAW's requiring an audio interface. It could be spun any way!

ArKyve-31 wrote:Just thought I step and say a mpc that was standalone and hybrid connected would not cost 3 stacks. The 2500/1000 is only a few programming steps away from controlling a dedicated software, and if they assembled a firewire output, then the physical outs issue would be solved, I mean the ren (not hating) really offers no specs that my midi setup with the 4k and reason 6 cant already do, other than the physical outs being limited, all my qlinks are assigned to properly control every rack in reason and layer with the audio in the 4k. I think some ppl are getting hyped up that its hybrid because they never dove into midi and realized what they can really do with their mpc/daw already. I applaud Akai for stepping into the future but some ppl act like this is the greatest invention ever and we haven't even seen it work yet. Its to much hype really, its only improving some of our workflows, its not going to make anyone here's beats better than they were before.

I'd be interested to travel with a fly, but only 4 tracks is pointless, I'd rather copp a 500 honestly, I hope they change that.

Ding ding ding. This is my whole point. No one really NEEDS another hardware mpc, at least not from what the purpose of this new line up is. Current modern mpcs are plenty capable as hardware units.

But as for the price, going from what previous "flagship" mpc models like the 4-5k and roland mv's costed, I'm sure a flagship hardware ren would have an msrp of over $3000. Now with the ren, akai is saying $1299. They are the manufacturers, so the actual street price may be less.

it's a must for me. the only time i ever really use a computer is to track out. i like working right on the box for the entire process, just keeps me in the zone. personal preference of course.

The thrill of ditching cops and traveling to unknown neighborhoods is not there anymore.

not so fun when you finish in jail

DJ Hellfire wrote:It could be spun any way!

TRUTH!

i want bring up a couple things you mention -
you say 'well most people already have computers' - yes you're right. but that's my point. my mpc is an mpc and thats it. it only does that and every single resistor inside it was put there with the sole purpose of making it an mpc.
the brains of an mpc ren is also a word processor, dvd player, gaming console, email checker, etc etc etc and every component inside has to work on a 'lowest common denominator' type of scenario and like i said, this lowest level is HUGE and pretty sketchy in modern day computing tech.
also yea people 'might' have a computer already but is it really capable of running a software-based hardware platform? i would say there is no answer to this because the possibilities are literally infinite.

another thing that has been brought up is 'we dont need a new mpc'.
again, excellent point but i want to take that deeper... in order to do that i want to relate it to something else hellfire said

DJ Hellfire wrote:I don't think there is enough demand for a product like that today. And to survive as a company, they have to go where the money is

you are totally right here.
but please allow me to posit the possibility that this 'demand' is, as much as it is user consumer driven, manufacturer driven.
yer right, akai could not survive making dope samplers. the skilled producers who use these machines are too few and far between. but eeeevveerybody wants that. this is why numark is so genius/evil - they simply bought that reputation, and flipped it into an image to sell and now look, slowly the actual product has literally evaporated out of the machines themselves and look what are they selling - a maschine with the name 'mpc' on it.
they are literally selling a dead box with the name mpc on it.
oh yea hook it up to your computer (if you have one, if it works)...see now its an mpc )
edit: this is why i just wish they wouldn't call it an mpc.

they're selling an image more than anything. the advertising budget obviously dwarfs the hardware support (5k users where are you? god bless jj.) and what's in those ads....image.

so yes, to survive as a giant, mass-profit, selfish corporation, they have to go where the money is. the real ingenuity is not happening at these big guys anyway - look at midines or vallixi os or wtpa sampler or x0xb0x or zvex - these are all little companies, making great products but probably not making the same stacks because their resources go more into making the product dope than convincing us that we need the new product just cause it's new.

wow - having a legitimate conversation is refreshing - thank yall

hyp wrote:it's a must for me. the only time i ever really use a computer is to track out. i like working right on the box for the entire process, just keeps me in the zone. personal preference of course.

same here!

I've been hammering Maschine this week and on a few occasions the timing has glitched and missed a beat. Almost like a record jumping.


You too, Coz ... I've had this and thought it was something I was doing with the unit somehow to affect it ?