About Real-time Swing...Swing commitment.

Hopefully we get this feature with Ren. But I do have a concern that just dawned on me while using Maschine yesterday. Now, obviously, no MPC has real time swing. But you can apply a certain swing to an instrument, and then over dub that same track with a different swing setting, and the two different swing settings don't affect each other.

While using Maschine yesterday, which does have real-time swing, I laid a nice snare pattern down and threw some swing on it and had it sitting right in the pocket where I wanted. Later I came back to the snare track to overlay a couple more snare hits, and I couldn't for the life of me get the new snare hits to sit where I want, even with timing off, and nudging it around. For a second I was completely puzzled. Then I realized I had real-time swing applied to the snare already, so it was throwing off the new hit I was trying to lay down. So basically I had to completely ditch the swing and shift my notes to where I wanted them. I could have easily just laid the over dub on a new track, but I like to keep them all together.

So basically, without a feature to actually commit the swing timing to the actual track once we dial it in, it's kind of pointless to even have. Maybe not pointless, but it kinda hinders the workflow a bit! I know Reason has a commit feature for the Regroove module. Would be nice for the new MPC's to also feature this.

Yeh, that is a problem, DJ ... and it's nigh on impossible to remember the settings for each different song you go back to time and again


A few of my synth plugs have similar failings and as a result the bloody virtual opts to 'guess' what sound was at the point odf recording and the way it was played in and back - it has resulted in some ugly sonic messes, I can tell you

the beauty of just using separate tracks.

though i guess (from what ive heard about maschine) that this makes more sense in an mpc-sense than a maschine-sense.

still, that's something i love about mpc...swing is committed to the track.

tapedeck wrote:the beauty of just using separate tracks.

though i guess (from what ive heard about maschine) that this makes more sense in an mpc-sense than a maschine-sense.

still, that's something i love about mpc...swing is committed to the track.

True, the only issue is that if you have a bunch of drum sounds in your program that you have different swing on, you could potentially use up all of your sound slots in a program just to accomodate multiple swings settings for a sing sound. But since the program and tracks are setup different on MPC's, I imagine this probably wont be as big a deal.

DJ Hellfire wrote:True, the only issue is that if you have a bunch of drum sounds in your program that you have different swing on, you could potentially use up all of your sound slots in a program just to accomodate multiple swings settings for a sing sound.

are you saying that in maschine you set up swing per sound?

if so that is pretty whack.

ideally these basic, simple timing things like delay, start / end points, etc should be adjustable per sound, per pad, and per note / track in sequence. that way you could apply them universally, per program, or per instance.
(not holding my breath)

tapedeck wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:True, the only issue is that if you have a bunch of drum sounds in your program that you have different swing on, you could potentially use up all of your sound slots in a program just to accomodate multiple swings settings for a sing sound.

are you saying that in maschine you set up swing per sound?

if so that is pretty whack.

ideally these basic, simple timing things like delay, start / end points, etc should be adjustable per sound, per pad, and per note / track in sequence. that way you could apply them universally, per program, or per instance.
(not holding my breath)

Yeah, it's basically per sound/pad/track. Each sound/pad is a track in Maschine. This is very similar to how Reason works. In Reason's Regroove, if I apply swing to a track, I can commit that swing to the notes and Reason will actually physically shift the notes to their "swung" position. This turns off the swing for that track, but the swing still remains. Then you can go back and add new notes to that same track without the previous swing setting affecting your new notes.

DJ Hellfire wrote:Yeah, it's basically per sound/pad/track. Each sound/pad is a track in Maschine. This is very similar to how Reason works. In Reason's Regroove, if I apply swing to a track, I can commit that swing to the notes and Reason will actually physically shift the notes to their "swung" position. This turns off the swing for that track, but the swing still remains. Then you can go back and add new notes to that same track without the previous swing setting affecting your new notes.

dang, cant say that id jive with that i dont think.

i appreciate them offering so much editing per sound, but not at the expense of tracks.

having different tracks for different variations on the same sound is like my bread and butter - that would, as you said, seriously cripple me to be forced to duplicate the sound just to have different timing settings. im already out of space in my programs as is.

always interesting to see how different manufacturers approach the same thing.

tapedeck wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:Yeah, it's basically per sound/pad/track. Each sound/pad is a track in Maschine. This is very similar to how Reason works. In Reason's Regroove, if I apply swing to a track, I can commit that swing to the notes and Reason will actually physically shift the notes to their "swung" position. This turns off the swing for that track, but the swing still remains. Then you can go back and add new notes to that same track without the previous swing setting affecting your new notes.

dang, cant say that id jive with that i dont think.

i appreciate them offering so much editing per sound, but not at the expense of tracks.

having different tracks for different variations on the same sound is like my bread and butter - that would, as you said, seriously cripple me to be forced to duplicate the sound just to have different timing settings. im already out of space in my programs as is.

always interesting to see how different manufacturers approach the same thing.

Yup! Exactly! Such a simple thing as commiting your swing would basically alleviate the issue altogether. That or just stick to offline swing!

a lot of people we've talked to mention real-time swing, and while on paper it may sound like a good idea, at the end of the day, the MPC has been doing it the way it's been doing for 25 years now, and frankly, I'm EXTREMELY hesitant to change it. The Renaissance is going to stick to the original MPC method of offline swing, as DJ Hellfire has talked about.

thanks,
-D

Cool! Thanks Dan!

xparis001 wrote:a lot of people we've talked to mention real-time swing, and while on paper it may sound like a good idea, at the end of the day, the MPC has been doing it the way it's been doing for 25 years now, and frankly, I'm EXTREMELY hesitant to change it. The Renaissance is going to stick to the original MPC method of offline swing, as DJ Hellfire has talked about.

thanks,
-D

Been a while. Going to have to ask you to reconsider. The points above are spot on about the lack of commit for swing on Maschine. I don't think you would want to get rid of being able to commit your swing setting to the sequence. However, the 4k had the ability to audition changes to swing in real time prior to committing. This drives me crazy about the other MPC's. How are you going to make adjustments without being able to hear what you are doing? What if your eq worked that way? This is an archaic and limited design. It should at least have the functionality of the 4k so you can hear what you are doing while making adjustments.

Even if we have to commit right away with a DO IT button before moving on. Like as soon a you turn the swing knob while the sequence plays, a window pops up with the swing value and two F-Keys, one for DO IT and one for CANCEL. And while this window is open, you can adjust swing, but you have to press one of the F-Keys to move on. It'd be the same as offline basically, except you don't have to stop the sequencer to hear the changes.

Exactly, a way to preview is all that is needed. You should be able to play the sequence and make adjustments in the T.C. screen. When you get it how you like you can press do it or cancel.

Another feature related to timing correct. The 4k also let's you toggle it on or off easy because it had it's own button. The Ren does not have that but I would like to be able to stop it from doing time correct for all real time input in preferences. That way you don't have to mess with t.c. settings between editing and playing if you like to play your parts without quantize.

I used to have the 4K and now use Maschine. The way Maschine handles swing is wack. The old Mpc way is fine to me. Even tho the 4K allowed me to audition in real time I think everybody kind of memorizes the swing of an mp in our heads. We have an idea of what 52% sounds like. It's not a big deal. If it aint broke don't fix it i say. This is one of the many things mpc's do right. And also if you don't like the swing applied press undo and try again, right? Or am I misunderstanding what y'all are saying? Like I said I used the 4k so it might be a little different from the other ones

It is a needless workflow issue. Why would you want to guess at a setting, press do it, press play, naw that's not right, press t.c guess again etc. There is no reason to keep old design flaws and limitations. Why make a new product if it can't improve issues that killed workflow? You could just stay with the old units with the slow load times etc. Make it faster. There is competition now you know.