Phono Preamp, DJ Mixer, etc.

So, one thing that would come in handy in having a DJ mixer would be the ability to EQ samples. If I end up getting the Cambridge 640P, could I simply get an outboard EQ processor?

My ideal chain would be:

Turntable -> Cambridge 640 -> EQ -> Compressor -> MPC

Is this feasible?

Minamoto wrote:So, one thing that would come in handy in having a DJ mixer would be the ability to EQ samples. If I end up getting the Cambridge 640P, could I simply get an outboard EQ processor?

My ideal chain would be:

Turntable -> Cambridge 640 -> EQ -> Compressor -> MPC

Is this feasible?

I think you are thinking it way too hard. You can always upgrade or add extra hardware later. I don't even think you'll need a compressor for sampling vinyl records, vinyls don't have much dynamic range to begin with.

Equalizing a sample, at least from my school of thought, is pretty necessary. Plenty of cats, Pete Rock included, don't sample without EQ capabilities. And compression, in my opinion, isn't just used to reduce dynamics, it's also used as an instrument of it's own kind (before or after the actual sampling).

90% of the French House and Down Tempo you hear has the characteristics and tonalities that it does BECAUSE of compression; especially if it's a compressor designed to add color.

Aside from that, I was simply wondering if it was possible to route the outs of a phono pre to an equalizer without any loss of signal clarity.

I wouldn't apply a compressor before sampling. It's true that some people EQ their samples before actually sampling them, but i'd be careful with that as well.

Think about it like this... whatever you do to the sample before recording it into the MPC will be pretty permanent afterwards. In my opinion it's better to record a sample untouched, and then apply EQ and compression later (if needed).

Your idea would work however. Loss of signal quality depends on the gear you'd be using. Basically it shouldn't be too much of a problem, but of course every added piece of gear can add noise too (some dbx compressors are not really good in that regard for example). But really, it should not be a big deal.

Try it out, and do what works for you... there's no golden rule.

PS: You should also keep in mind that music from vinyl is already mixed and mastered... so stuff like EQ and compression should be used "gently" and not too much (in my opinion).

i sometimes EQ my vinyl before I sample it, you dont HAVE to though. I have a compressor, but I never use it until Im pretty much done with the beat, never have i used it when recording samples/breaks into the MPC.


the mixer I have now has built in phono preamp and onboard eq, but before i got this mixer i used the Art DJpre II preamp, from turntable ->preamp ->mpc 500

Yes, Art DJ Pre II would be a good phono preamp too, and it is cheap and has good reviews! (I think I'm going to get an ART Tube MP Studio Mic Preamp for my Rhodes piano, but that's another story.)

Minamoto wrote:Equalizing a sample, at least from my school of thought, is pretty necessary. Plenty of cats, Pete Rock included, don't sample without EQ capabilities. And compression, in my opinion, isn't just used to reduce dynamics, it's also used as an instrument of it's own kind (before or after the actual sampling).

90% of the French House and Down Tempo you hear has the characteristics and tonalities that it does BECAUSE of compression; especially if it's a compressor designed to add color.

Aside from that, I was simply wondering if it was possible to route the outs of a phono pre to an equalizer without any loss of signal clarity.

Most of the cases, compression is applied during mastering. You can even apply compression using Garageband (sorry, I don't know how to use DAWs.)

I've read about Pete Rock would sample vinyls with EQ, I remember he was using old Gli PMX-9000 mixer (it was a very popluar DJ mixer in early 90s'.) It had 5 band EQ. It is a good practice when you are sampling one shot sample, like boost high for high hat, boost low end and cut high for kicks, etc. But, he was not using an expensive phononpreamp for sampling vinyls, as far as I know.

I hate to say this, but you should start experimenting with what you have. You should remember that house (especially Chicago house and Detroit techno) and hip hop music started with very very limited gear. If you really want to make music, should get started with what you have.
Many famous beat makers use very humbled hardware (Damu, Kev Brown, for instance.)
Like I said before, you can add those extra gear later. Start small, move forward.

These replies are exactly why I come to this forum
Thanks for all the good knowledge!

I've always seen EQing an instrument/master track as very different from EQing a sample. Where an engineer might scoff at 'dramatically' EQing a guitar track, the same engineer might encourage a drastic amount of EQ to a previously mastered sample.

At that point (in the sampling phase), you are essentially doing the reverse of what an audio engineer would do. You are unbalancing the sample, isolating from the track what you would like to use as a single instrument. Hip hop producers and French house producers alike are both very different from an audio engineer (and in my opinion, their jobs are a bit more complex), because they are, really, "audio disassemble-and-re-assemble engineers."

I mean, how many times have you heard a song that has 4 or 5 samples in it? I promise you the utmost of EQ was dumped onto each and every one of those samples.

As for compression, maybe I'm completely wrong. I will admit that the applications of compression are still quite mysterious to me. I just know that a compressor allows me to shape in more intimate increments than an EQ; attenuating the attack, smoothing out the release, and even bringing out funny harmonics otherwise unheard in the original master.

As for the noise issue, that's been weighing on my mind quite a bit. My general outlook is: if I can still manage to have some essence of a transient at the end of the track, I'll live!

eq is handy for sampling beforehand because yes you can 'isolate', or more accurately 'colour' the sound to fit your style. it is important to remember that it is a one-way street, once it's done it's done, but that's why i said it doesnt really matter - are you the library of congress or are you trying to create something new?

in this respect, a dj mixer gives you more control...because you can tweak eqs and gain. it's not gonna be the most accurate quality, but it works really good for sampling.
just as good as a dedicated pre will, if you plan on eqing afterwards.

as for a compressor, the sound of a compressor these days is more about being applied after the fact to a large group of tracks - not so much the individual samples. now, that would be a nice creative way to approach it, but that 'french' sound is a compressor applied on the master bus of the entire track.

also if you are compressing your samples before they go in, you are totally throwing accuracy out the window.

the thing here to realise is what i said in the first post - it doesn't matter. find what works for you and DO IT. get off the internet talking about it and figure it out. when you throw a word like 'best' around, you are going to get just as many totally legitimate answers as there are people - everyone in this thread has said good things...and everybody has a different view on it.

I'm on here talking about it because I am about to purchase my second wave of studio-gear!

MPC 1000 is #1 on the list.

Everything after that is quite a question mark.

I have a budget of $4000 (none of which is available yet) and just want to make sure I have some general guidance as to what to delve into.

I know I want a turntable, a sampler, and a synthesizer.

I've been working with software for the past several years and am quite tired of the workflow. I went to my friend Shea's house a while back and got to mess around with his workflow: turntable -> DJ mixer -> MPC, and I fell in love. I got more done in 2 hours than I would in Logic in a week.

I have, within the last two posts, realized that I was quite incorrect in applying compression before MPC. But even something as common-sense as that is the reason I'm on here learning from people who have a lot more experience with hardware than I do

I've been doing my research; I think I've made my mind on:

Pro-ject Debut III, Ortofon 2m Red, and the A&H Xone:22.

First, A&H seems to be one of the companies that might not be able to release bad quality gear, second, I think I could make very good use of the full-cut EQ and VCF-modeled filters.

A dedicated pre seems like it would be better for overall quality, but at the same time, I'm going to be blowing up the samples anyhow. Plus, a DJ mixer will come in handy for when I DJ

If there's anything I've gotten from all of these posts, it's been to work with what I have. Now, while I'm still not exactly doing that (as I will be purchasing new equipment, haha) I will still be able to employ that philosophy. I'm an amateur, and to have any equipment at all is a blessing.

Minamoto wrote:Pro-ject Debut III, Ortofon 2m Red, and the A&H Xone:22.

I'm sure you will be satisfied with the results of using that gear, sounds all good!

When you said you don't have an MPC yet, my first thought was to advise you to buy just the MPC then, and nothing else... to see if you even like it or not. But since you said you have already tried a similar setup to the one you desire at a friends place and liked it... well, go for it then!

Does the cartridge you listed already come with the project turntable, or would you buy it in addition to that? If the latter, then i would first try out the cartridge that comes with the turntable and see how you like it. Maybe you'll be more than satisfied with it, and then you could upgrade later if you really feel the need to do so.

I would have to purchase it after, but yeah I was thinking the same thing.
As we were talking about earlier, an audiophile is not exactly my end goal, haha.

For all I know, the differences in audio quality would probably have to be explained to me; I'm pretty sure at this level of my musical experience, my ears wouldn't even notice the differences.

The reason the Ortofon Red was appealing to me is for it's flat response; also, many who get the Pro-ject III strongly recommend upgrading the cartridge asap due to the quality (or lack-thereof) of the stock cartridge.

Thanks for everything! After I get some of my equipment I'll let you guys know how it's working!

that's going to be a killer setup.

an allen and heath mixer is going to sound great, and the filter will be lots of fun.
besides working as a preamp, imagine what you can do with it processing the mpc.

check this out - consider how much you can do by sending most pads to outs 1/2, then sending a special 'filter only' bus to pads 3/4 and routing them to another input on the mixer...now youve got an analog filter you can use; throw a cheap compressor AFTER the mixer to really french out your tracks.

anyway, just confirming i think yer gonna have a good setup with lots of options if you get creative.

Minamoto wrote:For all I know, the differences in audio quality would probably have to be explained to me; I'm pretty sure at this level of my musical experience, my ears wouldn't even notice the differences.

With good ears you'll hear a difference (if it's a noticeable step up in quality). When there's really a difference then you don't have to be an experienced musician to hear it.

What i've noticed the most personally, is the stereo image. Like when you close your eyes and listen to the music... how much do you feel like you have a stage in front of you / around you, and how good can you tell apart individual instruments, how good can you "place" them on the stage, how much little details you notice in the sound, etc.
I have noticed this with good speakers (monitors), headphones, preamps, cartridges, etc. For me personally, the stereo image and "definition" (dynamics maybe) are always what i notice with more expensive stuff (no rule without exception tho).

There's more to it if you get technical i'm sure, but i always noticed the above the most.

The real benefit of using quality equipment with an accurate sound reproduction and good stereo image, dynamics, blabla... is simply that it's nicer to your ears if you really start to listen and compare. In general if you love something that sounds good, you'll always appreciate a better sounding product... BUT...

In the end it doesn't really matter how good your gear is (i believe the cheapest entry stuff is usually garbage and a rip-off, but you don't have to spend thousands to get good quality either). I have never in my life listened to music that i liked, made a beat that i knew was gonna be good... and thought "hey, this music is really well mixed!", or "wow, my equipment sounds really good!". When music is good, it's almost always because it's just that... good music, no matter if it was recorded in a multi million dollar studio with a neve console, or with an old tape deck in someones living room.

I guess i'm just trying to say you shouldn't focus to much on the gear (the stuff you are planning to get all sounds more than fine regarding quality). Just start out with what is really needed and make music. If later down the road you feel like the quality of your musical "chain" isn't good enough, you can still upgrade individual things like the cartridge, etc.

Too many people (me included sometimes) get hung up in the thought that better gear will let them make better music. In the end it will only make the music sound better, and if it's shit music, it'll just polish a turd.

Hell yeah, that's what I like to hear!

And the whole idea you just came up with highly intrigued me -- break it down a little more retarded for me.

As for jibber, those words are taken to heart, I assure! And haha-for-days at "...it'll just polish a turd"!!

And I totally get what you mean about the gear not making you a better musician. I just want to make sure that the equipment I purchase will give me room to grow for awhile. Quality will also be something I don't have to worry about for a while, so I can focus on what I need to do as a musician and as an aspiring producer!

Not to mention I am pretty stoked on having actual hardware for the first time. It's a different world. I don't care about the 80 million flame wars about how software is just as good -- the workflow, connection, and overall feel is an entirely different experience! And I thank all of you for helping me in that journey!

Hopefully I'll end up playing some shit-ass underground show in all of your hometowns and you can all say "I helped that little bastard!"