The reason it's not standalone! Technically speaking.

DJ Hellfire wrote:

Retrofreak wrote:Sorry but the reason I would want standalone is so I can sequence with the MPC's solid internal clock and sound card without being tethered to a buggy computer full of variables.

VST in standalone is not important.

OK! But that's another discussion and a road we've been down many times already. This one is about how to make it work standalone without sacrificing functionality!

I hear ya but I don't see any functionality being lost as current MPC don't run VST's anyway.

If anything I can see future hardware simply using software as virtual expanders.

Imagine a Mini Moog Voyager that connects to it's VST counterpart for extra digital voices and processing.

AKAI had the chance to the same with the new MPC's but alas they've decided to copy N.I.

Ren software = Virtual expander of standalone MPC..simple!

DJ Hellfire wrote:

MPCWeapon1 wrote:MPC is my instrument. I prefer to get down on vintage over virtual.

Like I keep a 1000 by my bed. I heard a tight old school song when I woke. Ran it thru the 1k and made a dope beat instantly. No waiting for the CPU and program to boot up, no creating and setting file parameters and navigation thru menus with a mouse.
Just pushed one button and ......boom! I'm making music with my instrument.

Cool, but again, this isn't a discussion of whether standalone of tethered is better. This discussion is how can Akai possibly make it work so both sides are equally happy and have the same functionality of the MPC in both modes.

I dont know about your preference, but for me VST in standalone is irrelevant as all I'd care about is chopping and making sketch grooves in my headphones for later processing in my DAW.

If I was doing it the other way round i'd simply bounce/freeze my effects as samples so I can play with them on the fly.

Retrofreak wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:

Retrofreak wrote:Sorry but the reason I would want standalone is so I can sequence with the MPC's solid internal clock and sound card without being tethered to a buggy computer full of variables.

VST in standalone is not important.

OK! But that's another discussion and a road we've been down many times already. This one is about how to make it work standalone without sacrificing functionality!

I hear ya but I don't see any functionality being lost as current MPC don't run VST's anyway.

Well, if you have Ren able to use VST's in tethered mode, but not in standalone mode, then you have a loss of functionality in standalone mode.

Retrofreak wrote:If I was doing it the other way round i'd simply bounce/freeze my effects as samples so I can play with them on the fly.

VVVVV

DJ Hellfire wrote:Here's my point. And I'm being really conservative with the track count, as I usually have 10-17 different tracks in my beats, mostly stereo.

Scenario (MPC Ren is able to run standalone and has audio tracks capability):
[*] Say my beat session is 24-bit, 48K.
[*] On my sample track I have a Waves EQ and a Ping Pong Delay (Stereo).
[*] On my snare track I have a Reverb, Scarlett EQ and Compressor (Stereo).
[*] On my Kick track I have another Scarlett EQ and Compressor (Mono).
[*] On my hat track I have an EQ (Mono).
[*] My bass line is made from an instance of Trilogy VST (Mono).
[*] I also have a fill in melody I played from my Massive VST (Stereo).

I have 3 sequences, an intro, a main, and a hook, all with different patterns for the sample, drums, bass, and melodies and they are all 8 bars each.

So that's 6 different instruments with 3 different variations each, all with VST's on them. So that's 18 different parts I have to freeze/bounce in order for my beat to sound the same in standalone mode. At 95 BPM, that's 0:20 worth of audio for each of the 18 parts, and you double that for the stereo tracks. So 9 audio files @ 0:40 and 9 audio files @ 0:20. So that's 9 minutes worth of 24-bit 48K audio that needs to be played back in ram.

So now I'm in standalone mode, all my tracks are frozen, cool. Only now, since all my performances are now made of 8 bar chunks of 24-bit 48K audio, I can't play the beat live. My only option to be able to play the beat live and still have that same sound would be to go in and rechop everything into individual sample hits to be manipulated live.

And even if I don't want to play live and just want to work on my beat away from home, I can only add to it. I can't change anything that was already done since the audio is all in chunks. If I rechop and edit anything, it's not going to reflect the same feel as when I get back into the studio and connect to what I had originally done as the original beat sounded. Totally kills the vibe IMO.

groovemonger wrote:

LZ Roberts wrote:
The idea was an ipad that you can plug into a stand alone MPC so that you could use the bigger screen and touch if you wanted to. The MPC would function perfectly as a 2500,3000,5000 perfectly without one. An MPC like the 3700 that needed an ipad just to work would be like shooting yourself in the foot.

I know. But if you could use the Ren with an iPad (an 'always on' product with a good battery life) or, hell, even an iPhone it would be quite cool, wouldn't it? A bit more standalone. A bit like the Fly on steroids. iStuff is getting surprisingly powerful now.

I get you now.... yep, that sounds quite cool

DJ Hellfire wrote:Well, if you have Ren able to use VST's in tethered mode, but not in standalone mode, then you have a loss of functionality in standalone mode.

I think a lot of people are more than happy with that sacrifice by the sound of it.

Retrofreak wrote:I dont need VST functionality in standalone, I only want this when I hook it up to the computer via Ren software.

That sounds just fine to me too.

DJ Hellfire wrote:The object is being able to achieve the same exact user experience whether you are connected to a computer or in standalone mode.

I think that this is where the friction is. You're wanting the cost savings by jettisoning the standaloneability (there's a word ) Hellfire, but others are willing to pay a bit more to have the ability to have the MPC untethered as well. This looks like there is call for two streams of MPCness. One the Ren & its decedents and the other the MPC3700 and its decendents.

Does anyone know what I'm on about if I say Morlocks & Eloi ? .....

LZ Roberts wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:Well, if you have Ren able to use VST's in tethered mode, but not in standalone mode, then you have a loss of functionality in standalone mode.

I think a lot of people are more than happy with that sacrifice by the sound of it.

Retrofreak wrote:I dont need VST functionality in standalone, I only want this when I hook it up to the computer via Ren software.

That sounds just fine to me too.

Then you might as well just be happy with any MPC available now from the 4000 and up.

LZ Roberts wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:The object is being able to achieve the same exact user experience whether you are connected to a computer or in standalone mode.

I think that this is where the friction is. You're wanting the cost savings by jettisoning the standaloneability (there's a word ) Hellfire, but others are willing to pay a bit more to have the ability to have the MPC untethered as well. This looks like there is call for two streams of MPCness. One the Ren & its decedents and the other the MPC3700 and its decendents.

Sure folks may be "willing" to pay that much, but how many people are actually in a position to just splurge on such a machine? Certainly not enough to cover cost of development and production.

As far as "jettisoning" the "standalonability" to save money, that's the complete opposite of what I am asking. I think that's actually what Akai has done with the new line up. What I'm asking, again, is how can we have both tethered AND standalone and have them have the same function, meaning standalone DOES NOT lose any feature available in tethered mode minus ability to use a mouse. Meaning full VST functionality in standalone mode (minus viewing of the plugin GUI) without resorting to a bunch of frozen audio files and resampling and rechopping and such. How can that be done without it costing $3000-5000, which only a small percentage of the worlds population would actually be willing to pay?

Hey there Hellfire my buddy ,

Maybe your focussing to much about this as if the standalone version would have had to have had the exact same functionality as the VST version. Apart from a couple of complete noobs I dont think anyone would have expected a Hybrid MPC to basically be a fully fledged Daw in stand alone mode.

Akai could have made a hybrid machine easily enough imo. In fact I will wager a bet this was seriously on the cards at one point if you consider the design of the Ren compared to the Studio version.

Stand alone mode could have had the same capability as a number of MPCs but would have probably been a combination of the best aspects of various models. Lets say it had 64mb ram standard expandable to 512 or more (ram is very cheap these days). It has an enhanced 4000/5000 type Sequencer, 64 or 128 note polyphony, and had multitimbral functionality. It had some FX, nothing OTT, and the ability to filter any sound. Nothing to complex but more than enough to make tunes and beats. Hardly any research and development costs would have gone in to that side of it becasue they already have the groundwork done. But this Hybrid would have been able to do a lot more by linking to the computer at the same time to give on screen sequencer display, sample editing, instant file transfer etc. Stuff that couldnt work in this mode such as VSTs would be grayed out. Big deal I say...But even then a workaround was possible such as a firewire audio interface like the Allen+Heath Zedr16 and Mackie Onyx so your hardware Ren/Hybrid tracks could be sent to separate channels on your Daw. Voila you can go to town on your VSTs. Once the track is done you can switch to VST mode, transfer the samples and sequence data at the click of a switch and your golden. The technology is there for this, its nothing new.

There would have been an extra cost. Lets call it Renaissance XL and lets say it was going to be $700 more than the controller only version. So whats that, $15/1600 all in. I definitely don't think that's out of reach for most when you consider the price of a Tempest or Machine Drum as well as tons of other gear out there. So, they could have had three versions.

A hybrid version would have pleased a lot of people out there and it would have been a very unique product. I don't think any of us should underestimate the desire for many to just switch on a piece of hardware and start working without the need for a computer. This is one of the major strengths of any MPC.

No disrespect Helllfire, but this going around in circles.

NO MPC at the point has VST integration...in standalone mode this will not be missed plan and simple.

The whole point of standalone is to knock up quick sketches without relying on the computer to sequence, this can be achieved simply and cheaply.

You guys are still talking about a $3000-$4000 MPC. If what some of you are proposing is so easy to do and consumers actually wanted to buy them...then why isn't any other company making this type of product?

Roland abandoned the MV line long ago. Dave Smith/Roger Linn abanoned their original plans for the Linn Drum II/Boomchik and came up with a streamlined synth/drum machine (for $2000) that is still in beta and not exactly flying off the shelves.

...don't forget that it takes years of research, development, and testing to create a new breed of product. That costs major $$$. A new product will have to do more than just recoup the investment made for developing it.

labcoats wrote:Hey there Hellfire my buddy ,

Maybe your focussing to much about this as if the standalone version would have had to have had the exact same functionality as the VST version. Apart from a couple of complete noobs I dont think anyone would have expected a Hybrid MPC to basically be a fully fledged Daw in stand alone mode.

Akai could have made a hybrid machine easily enough imo. In fact I will wager a bet this was seriously on the cards at one point if you consider the design of the Ren compared to the Studio version.

Stand alone mode could have had the same capability as a number of MPCs but would have probably been a combination of the best aspects of various models. Lets say it had 64mb ram standard expandable to 512 or more (ram is very cheap these days). It has an enhanced 4000/5000 type Sequencer, 64 or 128 note polyphony, and had multitimbral functionality. It had some FX, nothing OTT, and the ability to filter any sound. Nothing to complex but more than enough to make tunes and beats. Hardly any research and development costs would have gone in to that side of it becasue they already have the groundwork done. But this Hybrid would have been able to do a lot more by linking to the computer at the same time to give on screen sequencer display, sample editing, instant file transfer etc. Stuff that couldnt work in this mode such as VSTs would be grayed out. Big deal I say...But even then a workaround was possible such as a firewire audio interface like the Allen+Heath Zedr16 and Mackie Onyx so your hardware Ren/Hybrid tracks could be sent to separate channels on your Daw. Voila you can go to town on your VSTs. Once the track is done you can switch to VST mode, transfer the samples and sequence data at the click of a switch and your golden. The technology is there for this, its nothing new.

There would have been an extra cost. Lets call it Renaissance XL and lets say it was going to be $700 more than the controller only version. So whats that, $15/1600 all in. I definitely don't think that's out of reach for most when you consider the price of a Tempest or Machine Drum as well as tons of other gear out there. So, they could have had three versions.

A hybrid version would have pleased a lot of people out there and it would have been a very unique product. I don't think any of us should underestimate the desire for many to just switch on a piece of hardware and start working without the need for a computer. This is one of the major strengths of any MPC.

^^^^This

JAH wrote:You guys are still talking about a $3000-$4000 MPC. If what some of you are proposing is so easy to do and consumers actually wanted to buy them...then why isn't any other company making this type of product?

Roland abandoned the MV line long ago. Dave Smith/Roger Linn abanoned their original plans for the Linn Drum II/Boomchik and came up with a streamlined synth/drum machine (for $2000) that is still in beta and not exactly flying off the shelves.

...don't forget that it takes years of research, development, and testing to create a new breed of product. That costs major $$$. A new product will have to do more than just recoup the investment made for developing it.

Nord Modular, Roland VariOS?

Retrofreak wrote:

JAH wrote:You guys are still talking about a $3000-$4000 MPC. If what some of you are proposing is so easy to do and consumers actually wanted to buy them...then why isn't any other company making this type of product?

Roland abandoned the MV line long ago. Dave Smith/Roger Linn abanoned their original plans for the Linn Drum II/Boomchik and came up with a streamlined synth/drum machine (for $2000) that is still in beta and not exactly flying off the shelves.

...don't forget that it takes years of research, development, and testing to create a new breed of product. That costs major $$$. A new product will have to do more than just recoup the investment made for developing it.

Nord Modular, Roland VariOS?

Far from an MPC and MV.....no where close to being the same or similar product. And aren't those products discontinued?

JAH wrote:

Retrofreak wrote:

JAH wrote:You guys are still talking about a $3000-$4000 MPC. If what some of you are proposing is so easy to do and consumers actually wanted to buy them...then why isn't any other company making this type of product?

Roland abandoned the MV line long ago. Dave Smith/Roger Linn abanoned their original plans for the Linn Drum II/Boomchik and came up with a streamlined synth/drum machine (for $2000) that is still in beta and not exactly flying off the shelves.

...don't forget that it takes years of research, development, and testing to create a new breed of product. That costs major $$$. A new product will have to do more than just recoup the investment made for developing it.

Nord Modular, Roland VariOS?

Far from an MPC and MV.....no where close to being the same or similar product. And aren't those products discontinued?

The concept is similar both devices ran standalone and integrated with software at an affordable price.

Akai could simply build on the concept