xparis001: Ren Beat Clock sync

The 1000/2500/5000 range of MPC's has serious beat clock sync issues. - you probably have seen this already: http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... 0Midi.html

This makes using the MPC as slave unusable, one of the reasons why I sold the 5000 and went onto 4000. <<< OS Update

Can you please confirm the new MPC software will slave to Pro Tools accurately via Beat Clock.

I would be looking to run MPC soft alongside Pro Tools HD and sync via Beat Clock. The reason for this is that I want to run the AUDIO OUT of MPC soundcard into my HD Interface to be able to capture the 3000 sound.

Thanks.

E

I agree. This is crucial to everybody using any DAW. From Studio One/PT, Logic, to Ableton and FL.

e9000k wrote:The 1000/2500/5000 range of MPC's has serious beat clock sync issues. - you probably have seen this already: http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... 0Midi.html

This makes using the MPC as slave unusable, one of the reasons why I sold the 5000 and went onto 4000. <<< OS Update

Can you please confirm the new MPC software will slave to Pro Tools accurately via Beat Clock.

I would be looking to run MPC soft alongside Pro Tools HD and sync via Beat Clock. The reason for this is that I want to run the AUDIO OUT of MPC soundcard into my HD Interface to be able to capture the 3000 sound.

Thanks.

E

lol, you've stumbled into a hobby obsession of mine...

this page has more data, and comparisons of other manufacturers:

http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... itmus.html

the ren software will be capable of slaving to Midi beat clock, yes.

that being said, if you run the mpc as a plugin, the timing will be sample accurate, though I see why you'd want to do it from one to the other, too.

regarding the page you sent, I've seen that before, and while it's a legit test for timing, it's not really much of a litmus as far as a real-world situation.

The MPC5000's timing is actually the tightest of all the mpcs available. this page makes it look like the 3000 is. the 3000 is tight, yes, but here's why this test is inaccurate.

an MPC4000 uses midi for all of its communication from the sequencer to the voice engine. what this means is it's all linear. If that same test was conducted using 10 tracks of 16th note high-hats, all sent out individual mono outs, the 4000s timing would be affected, simply because its playing linearly, one event at a time. conducting this same test using a 4000 and a 5000, the 4000's highhats would start to flam, but the 5000s would stay right where they are.

another factor is processor speed. while yes, an MPC3000 internally isnt linear eventwise, if you put 32 events on a single clock position, you get the flam effect. The more you pile into the sequencer, the more lagging it gets.

but that isnt necessarily a bad thing, however. All of these factors add up to how a sequencer feels. People love how a 3000 swings. people say when they mute tracks on their 3000 it doesnt "feel the same". these are all deciding factors in how a sequencer "feels". perfect example is actually on this list, the TR909. People always say how sampling it doesnt do it justice and you need to have its sequencer because its "feel" is so good. looking at the numbers, apparently the famous 909 feel is just god-awful timing.

e9000k wrote:The 1000/2500/5000 range of MPC's has serious beat clock sync issues. - you probably have seen this already: http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... 0Midi.html

This makes using the MPC as slave unusable, one of the reasons why I sold the 5000 and went onto 4000. <<< OS Update

Can you please confirm the new MPC software will slave to Pro Tools accurately via Beat Clock.

I would be looking to run MPC soft alongside Pro Tools HD and sync via Beat Clock. The reason for this is that I want to run the AUDIO OUT of MPC soundcard into my HD Interface to be able to capture the 3000 sound.

Thanks.

E

I have never had a single issue slaving my 2500 or 1000 to Pro Tools. But then again, I never used Beat Clock, which is known to drift. I always used MTC! Always works rock solidly.

DJ Hellfire wrote:

e9000k wrote:The 1000/2500/5000 range of MPC's has serious beat clock sync issues. - you probably have seen this already: http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... 0Midi.html

This makes using the MPC as slave unusable, one of the reasons why I sold the 5000 and went onto 4000. <<< OS Update

Can you please confirm the new MPC software will slave to Pro Tools accurately via Beat Clock.

I would be looking to run MPC soft alongside Pro Tools HD and sync via Beat Clock. The reason for this is that I want to run the AUDIO OUT of MPC soundcard into my HD Interface to be able to capture the 3000 sound.

Thanks.

E

I have never had a single issue slaving my 2500 or 1000 to Pro Tools. But then again, I never used Beat Clock, which is known to drift. I always used MTC! Always works rock solidly.

we're gonna have MTC too, before anyone asks!

Hi Dan,

Thanks for taking your time to respond.

Please note that my concern is not the internal timing, neither performance when sequencing external midi gear with the MP. The issue that I have is with beat clock when MPC is slave.

My setup is based around Pro tools 1st and MPC 2nd, so naturally I would want the MPC to slave to PT.

I logged a ticket with Akai as the MP5000 would always fall out of sync with Pro Tools HD (and yes I have also logged one with Digidesign) when salved to PT Midi Beat Clock. There is little response that I got back, looks like everyone is trying to avoid that problem.

Spend weeks working out as to why this was the case, after I went out and aquired the innerclock sync gen that gives me a sample accurate midi clock and it still did not work with the 5000. The MP would also fall out of sync after a few loop cycles in pattern mode.

Now I am using a 4000 and its flawless, I can only confirm that the measures on the innerclock site reflect my real life experience.

I understand that most folk will not use DAW and MP in a live kind of situation and they can get away with recording audio and nudging. Nevertheless this is something that should work flawlessly. Hardly anyone goes that far to compensate for the midi latency to even get the two to sync up right on time to even notice timing is screwed. With PT and MPC5k its very audible when running a click on both and cylcing around 2 bars.

But then again, some do..

Back to the original point, please do get the beta testers to slave MPC Soft to DAW's, compensate for the midi delay and see if it locks in even when looping around a region.

Send me a demo unit and I will happily test.

Thanks and Peace

xparis001 wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:

e9000k wrote:The 1000/2500/5000 range of MPC's has serious beat clock sync issues. - you probably have seen this already: http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... 0Midi.html

This makes using the MPC as slave unusable, one of the reasons why I sold the 5000 and went onto 4000. <<< OS Update

Can you please confirm the new MPC software will slave to Pro Tools accurately via Beat Clock.

I would be looking to run MPC soft alongside Pro Tools HD and sync via Beat Clock. The reason for this is that I want to run the AUDIO OUT of MPC soundcard into my HD Interface to be able to capture the 3000 sound.

Thanks.

E

I have never had a single issue slaving my 2500 or 1000 to Pro Tools. But then again, I never used Beat Clock, which is known to drift. I always used MTC! Always works rock solidly.

we're gonna have MTC too, before anyone asks!

LMAO!

xparis001 wrote:The MPC5000's timing is actually the tightest of all the mpcs available.......... but the 5000s would stay right where they are..

What causes the timing issues on the 5000 then?

You assume a drift when slave synced to Protools is the fault of the MPC. What about the jitter of your midi interface connected to your computer? Most computer midi interfaces have horrible jitter far worse than any MPC. Also, there are other factors that can come into play like DPC that will choke both audio and midi timing depending on your setup. Are other devices running tighter sync for you than the MPC when slaved to the same setup?

Edit: read closer. Using the test referenced above and comparing different devices answers that question. Still,

DJ Hellfire wrote:

e9000k wrote:I have never had a single issue slaving my 2500 or 1000 to Pro Tools. But then again, I never used Beat Clock, which is known to drift. I always used MTC! Always works rock solidly.

This^^^

b-righteous,

by using the innerclock sync gen device you get sample accurate midi beat clock see http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... %20LE.html

and yes now I am using a MPC4000 and get a close to perfect sync, were talking 1-2 samples drift at most which is not audible when running click tracks from MPC and PT thru the master.

The only logical conclusion is that the 4000 is far better when slaved to Beat Clock than 5000.

Maybe Xparis001 can shed some light on this & taking it back to the renaissance, lets hope we dont get these issues there.

It will get interesting coz peeps will run MPC5000 and Renaissance side by side and sync via Beat Clock. Shit will be off and then there is no more excuses as Interface, DAW and MPC are all from AKAI! Good fun for the Akai support line.

b-righteous wrote:You assume a drift when slave synced to Protools is the fault of the MPC. What about the jitter of your midi interface connected to your computer? Most computer midi interfaces have horrible jitter far worse than any MPC. Also, there are other factors that can come into play like DPC that will choke both audio and midi timing depending on your setup. Are other devices running tighter sync for you than the MPC when slaved to the same setup?

Sorry, I had just edited my post. I see what you are saying. I did not read your first post thoroughly lol.

b-righteous wrote:Sorry, I had just edited my post. I see what you are saying. I did not read your first post thoroughly lol.

All good, lets see if xparis can drop some knowledge on this one

as to the slaving and dropping out of sync using beat clock with pro tools, on the 5000, I believe it's a bug, and it's been logged. I actually have a test I'd like to try if there's anyone with a 5000 and pro tools using beat clock on here.

In the meantime, Hellfire is right, MTC is far more reliable in almost all cases if you dont need a tempo reference.

xparis001 wrote:as to the slaving and dropping out of sync using beat clock with pro tools, on the 5000, I believe it's a bug, and it's been logged. I actually have a test I'd like to try if there's anyone with a 5000 and pro tools using beat clock on here.

In the meantime, Hellfire is right, MTC is far more reliable in almost all cases if you dont need a tempo reference.

This is interesting, this answer I got from Akai support staff:

"After talking to my co workers, we thought it would be best if you did not use MBC. It will definitely eventually drift; this is normal."

I sure did not sound normal to me, and fact is that it works on 4000 but not 5000 already tells me it MUST be an issue with the device or software of the device.

BUT please make sure it works for MPC Software, makes the thing useless otherwise for cats that work in DAW and wanna get the vintage mode circuitry.

Peace

xparis001 wrote:

e9000k wrote:The 1000/2500/5000 range of MPC's has serious beat clock sync issues. - you probably have seen this already: http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... 0Midi.html

This makes using the MPC as slave unusable, one of the reasons why I sold the 5000 and went onto 4000. <<< OS Update

Can you please confirm the new MPC software will slave to Pro Tools accurately via Beat Clock.

I would be looking to run MPC soft alongside Pro Tools HD and sync via Beat Clock. The reason for this is that I want to run the AUDIO OUT of MPC soundcard into my HD Interface to be able to capture the 3000 sound.

Thanks.

E

lol, you've stumbled into a hobby obsession of mine...

this page has more data, and comparisons of other manufacturers:

http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... itmus.html

the ren software will be capable of slaving to Midi beat clock, yes.

that being said, if you run the mpc as a plugin, the timing will be sample accurate, though I see why you'd want to do it from one to the other, too.

regarding the page you sent, I've seen that before, and while it's a legit test for timing, it's not really much of a litmus as far as a real-world situation.

The MPC5000's timing is actually the tightest of all the mpcs available. this page makes it look like the 3000 is. the 3000 is tight, yes, but here's why this test is inaccurate.

an MPC4000 uses midi for all of its communication from the sequencer to the voice engine. what this means is it's all linear. If that same test was conducted using 10 tracks of 16th note high-hats, all sent out individual mono outs, the 4000s timing would be affected, simply because its playing linearly, one event at a time. conducting this same test using a 4000 and a 5000, the 4000's highhats would start to flam, but the 5000s would stay right where they are.

another factor is processor speed. while yes, an MPC3000 internally isnt linear eventwise, if you put 32 events on a single clock position, you get the flam effect. The more you pile into the sequencer, the more lagging it gets.

but that isnt necessarily a bad thing, however. All of these factors add up to how a sequencer feels. People love how a 3000 swings. people say when they mute tracks on their 3000 it doesnt "feel the same". these are all deciding factors in how a sequencer "feels". perfect example is actually on this list, the TR909. People always say how sampling it doesnt do it justice and you need to have its sequencer because its "feel" is so good. looking at the numbers, apparently the famous 909 feel is just god-awful timing.

The MPC5000's timing is actually the tightest of all the mpcs available. this page makes it look like the 3000 is. the 3000 is tight, yes, but here's why this test is inaccurate.

This is not true. THe MPC5000 us a drunken sailor on a drumkit

an MPC4000 uses midi for all of its communication from the sequencer to the voice engine. what this means is it's all linear. If that same test was conducted using 10 tracks of 16th note high-hats, all sent out individual mono outs, the 4000s timing would be affected, simply because its playing linearly, one event at a time. conducting this same test using a 4000 and a 5000, the 4000's highhats would start to flam, but the 5000s would stay right where they are.

The 4k is the tightest MPC of them all. Check the litmus page and dont forget to compare it with the 5000. Ive tested the 4k sending 8 tracks of 16th hi hats synced via a Sync Gen pro. There was a maximum deviation of 6 samples. Yes, I could hear the phasing obviously but 6 samples playing 8 tracks of 16th notes is pretty damn good for internal midi. I also think your missing out the 4ks sampling engine. Its fast, its really tight, Im not so sure about the 5k The MPC 5s timing isnt on the same level as the 4k regardless if the 4k uses internal midi,. I mean look at the Machine Drum, it has a push pull effect if 150 and 300 samples of push and pull drift. Its not using internal midi. Then there's the Tempest which cant even sync with any accuracy to any midi clock, not even a Sync Gen. what your sating just doesn't correspond with the 5ks proven data

I do agree however that turning on and off tracks can change the feel ,particularly with older sequencers. I noticed this with an Atari. I quite liked it at times. Its all about the groove