No Global MIDI track delay offset on MPC 4000

I did my midi timing test this weekend and the MPC4000 performed with excellence. The MPC4000 has better sequencer/ multiple unit syncing than my fantom S88. The Fantom S seems to sound like it is pushing and pulling at times. The MPC is a great piece of gear...I had 7 devices running and the timing was spot on.
I did my tests at 95bpm and at 120bpm. I just purchased a Roland MC909 and it is being shipped today. I will test the MC909 as well. The innerclocks website says that the MPC4000 and the MC909 have superior accuracy. I will be putting that to the test.
I know that the fantom S has the MC909 inside it, so it is interesting that the fantom sequencer is no shifty and I hear the MC909 is not. In any case I am very happy with the MPC4000 and I will be using it for live performances because it is just such a versatile sequencer.
If you have ever tried to make a DnB drum line on a Fantom S you will know that it is not so impressive. That is why I purchased a DR880 drum machine. It seems like the Fantom is trying to do too many things and it has compromised itself. (Mind you the Fantom S has great sounds and effects and sound shaping)Whereas, I am learning, equipment dedicated to one function tends to performance very well. The first time I tried DnB on the MPC4000 it was great.
Didn't mean to start a roland topic. Point is MPC= great midiclock.
Peace
Ian

I do not see how you would solve this problem with MIDI using 'track delay offsets' or whatever anyways:

MIDI is a serial protocol, so any polyphonic sequencing you do will *always* have the notes on the receiving device splayed out in time by a few milliseconds.

I do find myself being a little sceptical of how much practical difference this will make, though.
If you really care that much, you could always play the damn part properly like a musician, instead of cheating and trying to sequence them

Feline it's because he's confusing how software compensates for any inherent delays it induces with how the 4k performs.
IMO he's saying the 4k has problems because he doesn't see the same available parameters he accustom to within the 4k more so than because the 4k is causing issues.
The 4k has one of the fastest hardware sequencers response wise that you can find.
If the 4k actually preformed as bad as the OP is trying to say then most other hardware sequencers would be pretty much unusable.

feline1 wrote:I do not see how you would solve this problem with MIDI using 'track delay offsets' or whatever anyways:

MIDI is a serial protocol, so any polyphonic sequencing you do will *always* have the notes on the receiving device splayed out in time by a few milliseconds.

I do find myself being a little sceptical of how much practical difference this will make, though.
If you really care that much, you could always play the damn part properly like a musician, instead of cheating and trying to sequence them

Pugsly wrote:The biggest downside to the MPC 4000 is lack of a global MIDI Delay offset and Track Delay.

lmao - dude, some of us here have been battling with the MPC4000 operating system since 2002, when is was OS 1.11
Believe me, if the "biggest downside" had only been this, things would've turned out very different! (And Akai Unprofessional Inc might not have gone bankrupt. Twice...)

Pugsly wrote:If the MPC 4000 had an all MIDI output delay and independent real time track delay for each track and throw in a driver for an 8 out 8 in USB MIDI interface, it would have been a machine of the GOD'S. I would have turned my back on software sequencers PERIOD!!! With what I spent on my Mac Pro, software, audio card, MIDI interfaces, plugins, I would have 2 MPC 4000's a Lilo 24, a bunch of analog eq's some Fx and synthesizers, samplers and Romplers. I would have been in analog heaven. But alas the MPC 4000 remains only hint of its true glory thanks to Akai Unprofessional.

I used to do gigs with the MPC4000 play its own internal Z-series sampler engine, plus syncing a TR-808, CR78 and Oberheim DX, and sequencing a Korg Polysix and a Sequential Circuits Six-trak, and driving a Kenton Pro-2000 CV-gate box to drive a Yamaha CS-30.
Apart from nearly giving me a hernia carrying all that gear around, the timing was absolutely fine.

Are you sure you're not just one of these gear-lust fules who obsesses about some nonsense you read on a website in a desperate attempt to ignore the fact that your music sucks?

@Feline...I would love a Yamaha CS30. You are so lucky. many people want moogs, and oberheims I just want the CS30. Talk about hard to find.
Peace
Ian

Just to make you really sick, I got mine for £350, in 2003 ... some guy here in Brighton was just selling it cheap cos he never used it much.

I dunno - it's not exactly the most "user friendly" synth! In fact you might say Yamaha were on drugs when they designed the control panel .... the layout makes no sense at all...
Also the choice of features is a bit, erm, idiosyncratic - two multimode VCFs is nice - but they don't self-oscillate......
and three envelope generators is a bit of an overkill when you've only got one LFO (I'd prefer two of each!)...

To be honest I probably need to work harder at it, I've had it nearly 10 years now and I still close my eyes and wish for luck quite a bit when trying to get sounds on it

Here is me doing some juicy sounds with it a while back with Damo Suzuki of Can
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL482 ... AsY#t=129s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx12TA7 ... A9CD7F767F

Anyways, if you want to read some good info on latency in DAWs and MIDI gear (from an objective source who aren't trying to sell you snake oil), try these this two-part article from Sound on Sound magazine

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep02/a ... an0902.asp
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct02/a ... an1002.asp

Points to note:
- even a single MIDI note on message has a finite time to transmit (the MIDI protocol runs at 31.25kbps... takes about 1 millisecond to send a note down a cable).
Most hardware devices take about 2 to 5 milliseconds to respond.


The main thing I'd take from that article is this: it was written in 2002, i.e. the year the MPC4000 was released.
If you look at the typical MIDI latencies and JITTER (random variations in latencies) measured there for PC/Windows-based DAWs, the MPC4000 is an order of magnitude tighter and more stable than was possible with computer DAWs back then....... so claiming the MPC4000 wasn't "professional quality gear" for MIDI sequencing when it was released is basically bullshit

Here's another article on MIDI latency
http://www.hinton-instruments.co.uk/ref ... i/pg05.htm
Written by a guy who used to work for EMS (the British synth manufacturer... David Cockerall worked there too before he left to work for Akai and ElectroHarmonix - he was the guy who designed most of the MPC60 electronics, not Roger Linn, who did the higher-level design)

350 pounds means you won the lottery.
Interesting band, two drummers. Women on guitar is always cool.
Part 2 sounded good.


peace
Ian

Assuming that the OP has correctly identified the timing problem he is having (that's an assumption), it would seem that he is not so much complaining about any timing failure of the 4000 but in it's lack of a compensating feature to make up for the timing limitations of his specific external midi hardware that he is trying to sequence with it. I don't see anything in his post suggesting a timing "falure" on the part of the 4000.

elektrik_muz wrote:Assuming that the OP has correctly identified the timing problem he is having (that's an assumption), it would seem that he is not so much complaining about any timing failure of the 4000 but in it's lack of a compensating feature to make up for the timing limitations of his specific external midi hardware that he is trying to sequence with it. I don't see anything in his post suggesting a timing "falure" on the part of the 4000.

He was specifically speaking about the 4k being unable to properly trigger various external synths and we were saying that he was incorrect based on our usage of the 4k with externals.

He hasn't identified anything he just seems to have heard about MIDI delay and ran with it.

ntalec wrote:He was specifically speaking about the 4k being unable to properly trigger various external synths and we were saying that he was incorrect based on our usage of the 4k with externals.

Yeah but, whose externals? His? Does anybody know what this guy is actually running?

He says he has timing lag that he can correct by sliding the audio tracks. He claims he knows this is caused not by the 4000 but by the different, indivdual lag times of the connected (it would seem multiple) midi instruments. Now I don't know if he is correct in that assesment but I suppose he could find out by testing the indivual lag times on the stuff he has connected (whatever that is).

Still, I don't see him blaming the 4k for bad timing. He's blaming the connected midi gear. The only 4k criticisim I'm seeing is that he wants to be able to slide his midi tracks to compensate so he can play it live and doesn't have to slide the audio after the fact.

The questions I would ask are: Does he have the same problem with other sequencers? If so, does the midi track shifting functions available on other platforms solve this problem?

Nice pic of Avon, btw

Your assessment of what the original poster is moaning about is correct.

All we cats can say is that we've never noticed this to be a practical detectable problem.
For instance, I've been using my MPC4000 to sequence all types of external gear, right back to machines from 1983/1984, which has crappy old UARTs on their MIDI ins and a Z80 CPU running at 3.5MHz, and they still manage to respond to incoming MIDI from the MPC4000 fine.

The real question is why if you situation is so critical that the 4k is causing you delay issues, why would playing through a buffer which is what the delay offset would actually does be the solution?

It wouldn't.

elektrik_muz wrote:

ntalec wrote:He was specifically speaking about the 4k being unable to properly trigger various external synths and we were saying that he was incorrect based on our usage of the 4k with externals.

Yeah but, whose externals? His? Does anybody know what this guy is actually running?

He says he has timing lag that he can correct by sliding the audio tracks. He claims he knows this is caused not by the 4000 but by the different, indivdual lag times of the connected (it would seem multiple) midi instruments. Now I don't know if he is correct in that assesment but I suppose he could find out by testing the indivual lag times on the stuff he has connected (whatever that is).

Still, I don't see him blaming the 4k for bad timing. He's blaming the connected midi gear. The only 4k criticisim I'm seeing is that he wants to be able to slide his midi tracks to compensate so he can play it live and doesn't have to slide the audio after the fact.

The questions I would ask are: Does he have the same problem with other sequencers? If so, does the midi track shifting functions available on other platforms solve this problem?

feline1 wrote:Nice pic of Avon, btw

Oh thanx. Not too may people 'ol Paul D. back in the day...
I appreciate those Gram Hinton links btw I haven't been to that site in awhile and it's nice to review.

feline1 wrote:All we cats can say is that we've never noticed this to be a practical detectable problem.

I hear you. He mentioned analog synths and I'm wondering if he just has some really crappy midi/cv converters. Definitely some garbage in that market.