Anyone else feel left behind with the large LCD?

yeah some of us have waited for a long time for a feature, and thats ok. Jamon, you need to step back a bit. If you really had a bug that made OS unbearable then you can post it surely. I wish every day for some things but in the bigger scheme of things it is good, as there is more variation in development, which can be beneficial to us XL users to. patience is a virtue. I even thought of bugging a few people round here about it. But no need as there is still a thread and opportunity to post bugs, updates and dev on screen. So really Jamon chill out man.
I think the only downside is that I see a feature (like routing FX option) and I want it in JJOSXL as well. which equals more time for dev.

Jamon wrote:But when it comes down to it, none of that matters if the OS isn't stable and as optimized and fully featured as possible. Some people like to decorate their MPC, but the thing is, all the past mods have kept it a MPC. This is fundamental, even beyond cosmetic surgery, because it's like an eye transplant, where in order to use your new bionic eyes you need a brain mod. That's serious. It isn't simply just a new way to decorate your MPC, it's fundamental.

ISNT it??? stable??? now I know your trippin lol
I spent 6 hours straight making stuff today, not a problem at all. that not stable enough??? WTF??

Why do people assume it's not chill? It's possible to analyze the situation without it being all emotional. JJOS could shutdown tomorrow and I wouldn't care that much.

It can be stable, or it can crash. It really depends. That's good if yours is always rock solid. You might want to save routinely anyways, if you're not, just in case, since it would really suck to work for 6 hours then have it freeze.

I see here speculations in both directions.
1. that OS2XL is suffering from the time goimg into big screen OS
2. That OS2XL isn´t suffering from the time going into big screen OS
to me both kind of posts are just speculations.

To me speculation nr.2 has more logic in it as i speculate that JJ has just a certain amount of time going into JJ OS.
But thats then just another speculation.

it's a new screen... not a new machine with entirely new code.... one it set up to look different and make different use of screen real estate.... when a new feature is thought up then unless it requires the jumbo screen.... who is to say it wont make it into both versions of the OS?

What do people have against speculation? Maybe it's part of that anti-intellectual culture. To me, there's nothing wrong with just thinking about things, and exploring all possibilities. Yes, you may not be able to accurately predict what will happen, but if you're free to analyze everything you can imagine, then there's a good chance you thought about something similar and will have a headstart at understanding the quickly changing present.

There's too much combat against just talking about things. There's really no need for a bad attitude in any of this. There's no harm in speculation here. This is a forum, where people talk, discuss, share thoughts. I was thinking about this big LCD thing, and presented one side, and then someone else continues, and when it flows, the discourse branches out into fruitful patterns.

Or, people can just bicker, and tell others they shouldn't be discussing, and to just shuttup. Luckily there's some discussion going on, it just, feels difficult rather than smooth. Everything isn't a battle. It is possible to share those same ideas, differing perspectives, without it being a struggle of whose is strongest.

It is quite possible that JJ developer had the foresight to code the logic and presentation separate. It could be that there's 2 templates, for both the big and normal LCD. If that's the case, all the underlying code being built right now for OS128XL will be reusable. The normal display template would just have to be designed, plugged into the backend, and then there's harmony between sides.

But. JJOS development does seem kind of messy. It's quite possible too that it started out as a quick dirty hack to get something running on this new layout, which then became an obsessive challenge to grow into a full-featured OS. It could be that the developer is just focused on that one thing, and didn't think to make it possible to have the OS work for both formats. In which case, it's too late.

Then there really is a competition going on, where the userbase will split, and each side will be competing for attention. If there's 10 bugs submitted for both systems, which one takes priority? We've already seen a split, where there's currently multiple editions of the OS in service. You've seen how the latest project gets most of the attention. It's possible this is the latest project, and each day grows it further apart.

I wish there was more communication between the JJOS development side and English public. I also wish they'd release the source code, so we could see exactly what this thing is all about, and have a chance to take care of our selves. Just think if the JJ developer got hit by a train tonight. There should at least be a will, where it's written that the code should be uploaded.

It doesn't really matter that much, except that these types of dedicated machines seem to be a dying breed. If no one comes out with anything new soon, then the MPC becomes more precious. There's a few options, but I've not found anything else so versatile that has everything together, MIDI, drum, audio. It's the closest I've found to do what a PC can, by acting as the center canvas.

Jamon wrote:It is quite possible that JJ developer had the foresight to code the logic and presentation separate. It could be that there's 2 templates, for both the big and normal LCD. If that's the case, all the underlying code being built right now for OS128XL will be reusable. The normal display template would just have to be designed, plugged into the backend, and then there's harmony between sides.

yeah that is what I speculate too.. I mean the 1000 and 2500 are both close to the same hardware... except for a few additional details for the 2500 that make use of the extra hardware it has (which requires some type of coding)... right? so maybe it wont be too huge of a hurdle for the new large screens...

what's the worst case scenario if your 'fears' (for lack of a better word) come true?

OP,

To be honest it sounds like you are just whining. I want to break out the string samples. Maybe I will make the next "Boom" ala Preemo and Royce. You appear real sensitive, because people do not agree with you.

I will split the difference. I am far more interested in 3XL but I do not feel left behind. 3XL will likely have big and small screen compatibility, and that will be a good thing.

As for MPC-Tutor shilling. Thats pretty much all he does. However, mpc-samples is not a 503(c) organization. You need to get over that, because as far as I know, there is no .org version of this site. Keep in mind that you can not run a high traffic forum off world peace. (or one of those $5 a month webhosting vendors). To quote from Guru.. "Don't take it personal"

If for some reason the code wasn't setup in a way that could make it easy to share the underlying base with both LCDs, just supplying different display templates for each, then one problem is that one side of the divide could be neglected in terms of new features being added to their OS.

OS128XL could become the new flagship, and after time the OS could have features that make it more desirable than OSXL. Then more people from the OSXL group would buy the XLCD, and most of the updates, news, videos, talk would be about it. Then if you want to sail with them, you need to join the club.

It's a dividing modification, unlike any others. If you got red colored pads, it's still the same. If you get fat pads, or spray paint the case, it's still the same. If you run Akai OS, JJ OS Free, OS1, OS2, or OSXL, it's still just a software change, and it's all in the same body. But the bigger LCD causes a more physical divide.

If you run any of those firmwares on the big LCD, it's not ideal, so you're more likely to want to use one that utilizes the extra space. That automatically separates users in a way that's more fundamental than which OS they run. If someone is using OS Free, it's a PayPal payment and download away from expanding choices.

Previously, you had all choices available. You can even switch editions quickly. If you want to make your MPC like a stock Akai one, you can. If you want to run JJOS, you can. But now, there's finally something that splits the users in a deeper way. On both sides, there's stuff that doesn't work out fully, limiting choices for each.

If you have the big LCD, it's not easy to switch it with the normal one just to run another OS. That means, you're more likely to just leave it on. You can run the normal firmwares on it, but, it won't be ideal, and looks funky, so, you're not likely to do that. Instead, you're going to prefer to use an OS that fully utilizes that.

But if you have the normal LCD, you can't use that other firmware. If JJ unites them, and makes one single OS3, that runs on both, and autodetects which LCD you have to merely change the presentation, but being compatible in all other ways, then it's less of a problem. If that doesn't happen, there's this weird separated situation.

Then no matter what happens, there's a split, that goes deeper than which OS you've decided to boot up. If someone here has some issue with the Akai OS, you can simply tell them to try JJOS. If the Free version doesn't suit their needs, they can go for the latest pay version. If that's not right, there are previous editions that might be a better fit. It's all within reach, and there's little commitment, because it's firmware.

When you buy a big LCD, you're commiting. It's not just a potential loss for those with the normal LCD. Just think, if the code isn't united, what happens if OS128XL seems to be shaping up great so you buy the LCD and support that project. But maybe only a tiny fraction go that route, so most demand is for a normal LCD version, and then focus switches back over to that one. Then you're left behind.

Then you may like your big LCD, in terms of how it looks, and its potential, but feel like the OS for it is stale, and there's so many features you wish would be implemented, but because everyone else is too cheap and lazy they didn't support this modification, and now all the attention is back to the normal LCD. Eventually there might be som new feature in the normal OS you want, so end up running that version instead, in half-mode, and your big LCD is ridiculous.

You can call it whining if you want, but part of the importance in speculation is seeing the potential for loss before it happens. It's partly from caring for people, on all sides. Any kind of divide in this situation is potentially dangerous in terms of leaving a subset behind. It was said not to worry, because they were already behind, since it's aimed at the Free OS group, but, OSXL was within reach for them, so it didn't feel like they were unable to join the cutting edge development being done in the XL front. They chose to use the different version, and JJ attention wasn't there, so it didn't hurt anyone, and wasn't an issue.

But there is a divide here. We can't know it's permanent. I can imagine all sorts of scenarios that make this big LCD turn of events a wonderful change. That's why I tried to be clear that I'm not necessarily against it, or wanting to discourage anyone. But right now, there is a divide. You don't have to worry or feel bad about that, it could be a good thing. But it's something to consider, to understand what's happening.

It's not countries we're talking about, just users of a niche music-creation tool. But still, this kind of principle applies elsewhere, where the consequences are way more dire, so it's useful to practice in these safer situations in understanding, and being able to predict and choose wisely. Just imagine, if the big LCD were eye implants, that granted the users super long-distance vision... but you could never go back.

It's interesting to talk about, at least to me.

When put in the proper perspective it makes more sense. However based on the thread title and the tone of your original post, most will not want to align themselves with you.

XL screen OS is already getting features that the paid OS does not have. I have spoken with professional users of the 2500 and they have no plans of getting the XL screen due to the lack of portability. They would benefit from the new features though, if added to the normal jjos.

I would also add that XL screen users are probably at the highest degree of risk. Due to the higher investment required, they will probably end up being a smalelr subset of the JJOS population.

Yeah, so can't we just ask and know exactly what's going on? JJOS is a hacky third-party niche operation, there's no reason for secrecy. Is there anyone in deep communication with them, who can understand both English and Japanese? There shouldn't be need to speculate based on incomplete info when the full story should be a phonecall or email away.

The big LCD thread is... big, so I haven't tried to read it all before, but there are some tidbits in there I'll hunt out to try to better understand what's happening.

mpcstuff.com wrote:Some people had mentioned a possible "JJ OS3", I am not at liberty to give any info at this time in regards to a possible "JJ OS3". I do assure you all though, if and when JJ OS3 is released it will have support for the MPCstuff XLCDs

mpcstuff.com wrote:You will not be forced to use this larger screen with JJ updates. No worries on that. I do think that it would be beneficial, to get the most of your machine BUT you will have a choice

mpcstuff.com wrote:Their will be separate JJ OS's for normal 1000 and 2500 screen and the XL Large LCD Screens. So the JJ Updates will not require the new XL screen. So basically if you have the XL screen you will have a different OS available to you but if you chose to use the small one it will be fine. JJ will support both screen sizes.

mpcstuff.com wrote:The new screen brings in a whole different JJ OS set. So its kind of like having two different units in a way. Before the OSes were for MPC1000 and 2500. Now you will have two more sets of 0Ss for MPC1000XLCD and MPC2500LXCD. So JJ will now have 4 OS sets.

For small screens:

-OS3 is still in the works, and when finished will be for when upgrading from OS2

For large screens: (separate versions for 1000 and 2500)

-OS128 will be the FREE one that comes with the screen when ordered ( I will demo this one in a video)

-OS128XL will be the first edition of the paid JJ OS for the XLCD. (as for functions I will have to talk to JJ more about it as I am not 100% sure yet what all is going to be incorporated in the first go around)

mpcstuff.com wrote:I am quite sure (although havent spoke to JJ yet in depth about it, so no guarantees) that the PAID JJ OS128XL will have most if not all the features of the new OS3.

mpcstuff.com wrote:For those that are current paid JJ OS users, not to worry the OS128XL will evolve. If you choose to wait for it to evolve before purchasing the LCD, that would be totally understandable.

As for some of the missing features from OS2XL: Please realize these features are missing from this ORIGINAL BETA version of the OS. We all know JJ always updates the OS and that is the fun of it (kind of). The OS WILL evolve. There will be a slight curve where you may see some things missing since this OS has been built from the ground up. Just hoping you guys will be a bit more patient before passing judgement when it comes to the PAID OS.

There was talk about how JJ started from scratch, ditching the original Akai foundation, and how this new OS128XL was clean and a new start. It looks like all that came from this single remark, "this OS has been built from the ground up". I don't see any other indication of that being true. More likely, he took the XL code, started stripping away functions to make up for increased CPU load of the larger screen, then began branching it out again, modifying the GUI to utilize the higher resolution.

That's supported by a quote from JJ:

JJ wrote:The load of CPU is large, or since a problem arises, OS128XL does not have the following function.
Simul Sequence
PATCHED PHRASE
Q-link is only REAL TIME.
There are not SAMPLE START of Q-link, SAMPLE END, and CHOP.
OVER RAP mode of PROGRAM (INST)
ADSR
Pad Aftertouch
Pitch Bend Sensitivity
Bars loop
There is no function to control the value of the parameter of an effect by a MIDI controller.
The mixer of a pad is uncontrollable by a MIDI controller.
There is no function to assign the mode to the NUMERIC button.

If you start from XL, it's already pushing the limits of the CPU. So you remove some function to minimize the load, but then some other function depends on that, so you have to move or modify that, and it cascades down until you've had to prune out big chunks of code.

Then since there's never been any other screen, there's been no need to design it in a way where the graphical interface is setup to handle multiple presentations. It could've been a lucky situation where it happened to be setup in a way where adding that would work. But more likely it was baked in so after pruning functions he started modifying the presentation in a way that doesn't work automatically across both screens. Then in order to share code, it requires more hands-on merging and modification, rather than simply using the same exact firmware for both, but with a toggle depending on screen resolution.

But I don't know how this hardware is setup, if the CPU handles all the drawing of the screen, and if so, why merely doubling the amount would be a significant hit.

Nym wrote:this is somewhat of a miscommunication. CPU strain is apparently not a big issue here - i have acquired a translator to assist with future difficult communications.

JJ wrote:OS128XL is not the higher rank version of OS2XL.
OS128XL is completed as an original OS for large LCD.
I think that OS128XL is superior to any past OS.
It will upgrade in the future and will become better.

That last part about being superior, and upgraded in the future, adds credence to the idea that the big LCD is the new flagship, and it could become the primary focus and interest of JJ development.

mp3 wrote:Didn't realize though that it's actually not as wide as the original screen so when running os2xl the fonts etc are a little smaller.

Okay, after going through the entire thread, there's still no clear information about what exactly the current and future situation is for JJOS.

I wonder why mpcstuff.com didn't seem to talk about this before it was done. There's no competition, so there's no need to protect ideas to get out the gate before they can catch up. I would've expected a huge thread where they propose to the community, sharing 3D models, going over finer points with people who would be interested in buying, etc. This just came out of nowhere.

I hope it works out for them. I also hope JJOS development is smart enough to manage this nicely, so everyone benefits. In its current form though, there's reason to prefer OSXL, not just because OS128XL is missing features. Watching videos, the interface looks more difficult to parse visually. There's more big boxes in some screens, with text positioned more dispersed. In OSXL it's condensed, and setup in a way that's easier to scan visually.

Like the pad sensitivity screen:



That's the kind of design style being used in some screens, with big boxy tiles, each having their own little set of details. To parse that, you can't just quickly scan a condensed row or column, you have to kind of look at each one individually.

In comparison here's OSXL:



It's all in a row, with a single details pane on the side. Much better in a way, because you can simply look at the details pane at the "Velocity", and as you hit each pad, your eyes don't have to move to see the relevant info. But with OS128XL, the info is all scattered, so as you hit a new pad, you have to visually scan to find the location of the data to read.

If you wanted to quickly compare 2 pads far away from each other, with OSXL you can do it quickly by just hitting each pad after the other repeatedly, while staring at a single point. With OS128XL you have to keep moving your eyes to find the spot you need to look, which may not sound like much, but it is, and puts a cramp in workflow.

Also, if you want to look at the graphical bar to show the pad velocity or pressure, a grid breaks it up spatially, so off the top of your head, if I say to look where it'll show pad 5 do you know where to look? With OSXL it's in a straight grid, from left to right, so it's easy to quickly know that to look for one of the lower pads, you look more to the left.

However, in this case what's on the screen in grid form spatially relates to the spatial input of the pads that are also in grid form. So, for pad sensitivity mode, it could be that this grid layout is better. In OSXL, if you wanted to go through each pad from 1 to 16, your hand has to go in 4s, changing position with each new row, while your eyes are trying to relate that with a straight line. It doesn't match, so there's a mental conflict. Whereas in OS128XL, you can sync your eyes to your hands spatially, so if you move your hand over to the left one, then up one, you match your eye movement, which keeps it in harmony and there's no conflict. So actually it might be easier to know where to look for pad 4, since you have to find it on the pad grid anyways, and once you do you automatically know where it'll be on the screen.

This is the pad sensitivity page, which you don't use often, but this same kind of thinking is what's going into other pages where there's less of a relation between pad grid and screen grid.

Like the new loop edit mode:



Which has that same kind of big and dispersed feel in comparison to the condensed:



But, you do gain more visual information. In condensed form, a hit is a hit, and you can't sense visually how hard it is. In OS128XL, you can read it and hear it in your head. Just looking at this screenshot, you can have a more accurate sense of the data in the recording. Whereas if you tried to guess how the OSXL one sounds, it's all full level. In one sense, having more information is better. But, in another, it's better to minimize the visual info, and rely on ears. It can be frustrating, because we're essentially crippled, partially blinding ourselves to force the ears to take dominant role, when usually it's our eyes leading the way. But that often works better for music production. Otherwise, you end up in a very visual DAW, where instead of hearing the sounds you're paying more attention to what you see, and it becomes like Photoshop for music. That's great for technical engineering stuff and complex composition, but it's not so great for raw expression and artistic performance.

A major reason why I choose to pursue something like an MPC as a tool for audio production over the more flexible PC software is simply because the smaller fixated screen forces the developer to design in a condensed way (assuming they don't just lazily add a thousand sub-menus to do anything). Whereas with a windowed PC GUI, you've got all these floating flexible layouts everywhere, so you have to engage spatially, and go navigating to find things in space. It changes the mode of your mind, where you can't as easily lock into tight auditory-based awareness. It's like if when you're driving a car, in order to shift you can't just reach down and move a stick, but instead have to search the dashboard for a floating control.

It's like the difference in your Explorer or Finder of the icon view, and detailed. The big grid of icons with their own floating labels force you to search around in a more broader way. In detailed view, there's a fixed list of items, ordered in a condensed predictable form, so you can quickly scan.

By minimizing the visual load, you maximize the power of your auditory system. This is why closing your eyes and beating a drum is always going to be more freeing and expressive than composition using any electronic tool with a screen. It's a constant struggle to find a balance between what comes natural and allows primal forces to flow, and what is techie in a restrictive way, forcing you to think and do math rather than just open your mouth and shout.

... and if there's still any confusion about whether or not OS128XL is started from scratch, looking at the manual it's very clear that this is XL with modifications.

As far as bugs, note repeat + qlinks, especially when the q links are controlling tempo has given me freezes where i have to power off the MPC since around version 3. I'm on 3.19 now and it seems like tap tempo is gone, maybe it's back in 3.2?

Jamon wrote:Okay, after going through the entire thread, there's still no clear information about what exactly the current and future situation is for JJOS.

You quoted the clear information. OS128XL is the current and future for the big screen, and OS3 is under development for the stock screen. Can't be more clear.

Jamon wrote:I would've expected a huge thread where they propose to the community, sharing 3D models, going over finer points with people who would be interested in buying, etc.

Curious to know why that's your expectation...

Jamon wrote:Watching videos, the interface looks more difficult to parse visually. There's more big boxes in some screens, with text positioned more dispersed. In OSXL it's condensed, and setup in a way that's easier to scan visually.

Like the pad sensitivity screen:



That's the kind of design style being used in some screens, with big boxy tiles, each having their own little set of details. To parse that, you can't just quickly scan a condensed row or column, you have to kind of look at each one individually.

In comparison here's OSXL:



It's all in a row, with a single details pane on the side. Much better in a way, because you can simply look at the details pane at the "Velocity", and as you hit each pad, your eyes don't have to move to see the relevant info. But with OS128XL, the info is all scattered, so as you hit a new pad, you have to visually scan to find the location of the data to read.

Viewed from another perspective (no pun intended), there's room for more data - which should ultimately mean better data presentation and fewer screens/windows. Not to mention the functionality it enables (loving 10 tracks mode and stereo waveforms...) In OS2XL, data is squeezed in too tight in some places and there are far too many different screens, windows, sub-windows etc. IMO more screen space is exactly what the doctor ordered, so I personally welcome the elbow room.

But I can see where you're coming from, as far as GUIs and mind modes; there's a line somewhere, but I don't get the feeling that OS128XL has crossed it. Concerning the difference between a DAW and an MPC, what messes with me more than the visual itself is the degree of abstraction/separation between the GUI and the means to control the GUI. In other words, functionally, I can dig using Kontakt with a tablet PC, but force me to use a mouse and it annoys the crap out of me after a while.

This particular point is definitely a matter of preference though so I can definitely see where you're coming from.

I will say two things...

1) Perhaps JJ doesn't know yet where things are headed, so thats why its not clear. The new XL screen changes things, and it is not clear what direction JJ wants to take. Perhaps you see contradictions, because JJ hasn't made up his mind yet, and is being pulled in different directions depending on how he thinks about it. It happens.

2) Just like with music projects.... many people dont start promoting something too far in advance of having product in hand. Im sure mpc-stuff thinks that a community development project for the XLCD, would possibly kill the "wow factor" and buzz aorund the whole project, if it takes too long to develop. He was probably thinking "Im gonna hit them with the info, then shortly after I will hit them with the produc!" A lot of people in business think this way. Im not saying you are wrong about allowing user input for the design and development, but most people in business do not think like that. He probably should have gotten a "council of elders" so to speak to give input. Perhaps people form this board, mods etc, maybe professional users..

You seem to have a conspiracy theorist type of overtone. I dont think its that complicated. I just dont think they know the best approach to take, and are just making moves that seem to make sense at the time. Speculation might be futile if it comes to light that that they dont have a clear path paved in stone. What might be true one day, might not be ture the next.

TBH I know a number of cats that stopped paying attention to the XLCD news, after patched phrase was dropped. Im one of them. No patched phrase makes the MPC useless for some. Not to mention the multiple genres of breakbeat cats that probably use that feature extensively. They are crippling the potential user base.

It looks fresh though.. lol

You seem to have a conspiracy theorist type of overtone.

welcome to MPC-Forums!!!! collect your tinfoil hat and nametag from the table to the left. begin familiarizing yourself with inside community jargon such as "zeitgeist" and "sheeple"

TBH I know a number of cats that stopped paying attention to the XLCD news, after patched phrase was dropped. Im one of them. No patched phrase makes the MPC useless for some. Not to mention the multiple genres of breakbeat cats that probably use that feature extensively. They are crippling the potential user base.

i didn't know there was anyone who used patched phrase, at all. a sliced sample in its own program is infinitely more powerful than a patched phrase - and actually, you may like to know this: patched phrase functionality is obsoleted by pad pattern. the mpc 1000/2500 implementation of patched phrase always left a lot to be desired.

Apparently I was trying to use it incorrectly. ADSR and Q-Link sample start still are roadblocks for me at the moment.