The mixer on the Ren sucks

DJ Hellfire wrote:Ren does make it easier to put individual effects on individual slices.

I don't know about that. But I'm sure you already know that in Maschine, you slice to a group using "Apply To" (which puts each slice on a separate pad) for putting individual effects on individual slices.

emptysea wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:Ren does make it easier to put individual effects on individual slices.

I don't know about that. But I'm sure you already know that in Maschine, you slice to a group using "Apply To" (which puts each slice on a separate pad) for putting individual effects on individual slices.

Being able to have individual effects on different slices is pretty slick

es-k wrote:Don't forget about mode+keyboard on maschine - making a group way more than one "track".. Especially if you're only messing with chopped samples.. Each pad can have its own effects, etc

You know what, I just now got what you were saying, you're referring to a keygroup but originally I thought you were talking about playing one sample up/down the keyboard chromatically (my bad). Keygroups operate differently in Maschine and the REN (as I explained earlier) and if you're using a keygroup then you no longer have any sound shaping tools per slice/sample.
But I think I will fade to black on this discussion because I think everyone has their own strong views on workflow and what they like, and bottom line is if it works well for your workflow then it's the right workflow.

Think the whole idea of the track mixer makes the MPC feel crippled, why not this way:

convert the track mixer to an routable AUDIO mixer, leave the PGM mixer and allow to send PAD's to the AUDIO mixer

SOUNDS > PAD MIXER > PGM MIXER > AUDIO MIXER > PHYSICAL OUTPUTS

you can level sounds in the pad mixer and assign these to individual AUDIO Mixer channels

if you happen to have all sounds split by PGM anyways you can level your sounds using PGM mixer

then you can route either PGM or PAD's to Audio Mixer that supports AUX channels

you bounce AUDIO Tracks, that way you can control your wav bounces and get stuff ready for sending it off to get mixed..

emptysea wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:Ren does make it easier to put individual effects on individual slices.

I don't know about that. But I'm sure you already know that in Maschine, you slice to a group using "Apply To" (which puts each slice on a separate pad) for putting individual effects on individual slices.

I was talking about when chopping up a sample. If I chop a record into a 128 pieces Maschine, I'd have to use every pad in all 8 groups and extract each slice to a pad to have individual effects for each slice. Then I'd have no room for any other sounds. So your basically forced into using NDC. In the Ren, I simply chop all 128 slices to a new program and each slice/pad is fully independent. And you still have gazillion other programs and pads to use for other shit.

Of course this is an extreme example in a way. I do chop samples into many pieces like this, but I rarely ever need to use different effects when I chop a record. On maschine, if I do need to use different effects on certain pads that I chop like this, I simply copy the pad, apply the effect I want and play those slices I want effected separately from the main pad onto the duplicate. Most I usually need to do this is 4 or 5 copies. Either way, just saying, Ren is more flexible in this regard.

DJ Hellfire wrote:On maschine, if I do need to use different effects on certain pads that I chop like this, I simply copy the pad, apply the effect I want and play those slices I want effected separately from the main pad onto the duplicate.

Yeah, I would use duplicate in that situation.

DJ Hellfire wrote:

JAH wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:This is kinda contradicting though. Saying people don't want all these daw like features, yet they want audio tracks. The Ren has a daw like mixer, so it should perform more similar to one.

And Maschine does have a mixer, it's just not laid out visibly like you're used to seeing mixers laid out.

I am simply saying "some" people prefer one thing over another. I think everyone agrees that the Ren's mixer can be improved...but saying it sucks? I disagree. I can wait until Akai addresses functions that I believe are more important.

Audio tracks is not a feature unique to DAWs. Plenty of sampling workstations have audio tracks to include the MPC 50000, MV 8800, and several keyboard work stations. Then Ren should have the same.

You may be able to mix on Maschine but it doesn't have a mixer by any stretch of the imagination. Pads are like tracks on Maschine....but like and actually having tracks is two different things. There is nothing wrong with a product being unique and doing things it's own way. But because Maschine performs this way, it can never replace the Ren in my studio.

Don't know why we keep talking about Maschine though. It's no longer relevant. While I own Maschine, I have no reason to turn it on other than seeing what NI adds to another update.

JAH wrote:1. I am simply saying "some" people prefer one thing over another. I think everyone agrees that the Ren's mixer can be improved...but saying it sucks? I disagree. I can wait until Akai addresses functions that I believe are more important.

2. Audio tracks is not a feature unique to DAWs. Plenty of sampling workstations have audio tracks to include the MPC 50000, MV 8800, and several keyboard work stations. Then Ren should have the same.

3. You may be able to mix on Maschine but it doesn't have a mixer by any stretch of the imagination. Pads are like tracks on Maschine....but like and actually having tracks is two different things. There is nothing wrong with a product being unique and doing things it's own way. But because Maschine performs this way, it can never replace the Ren in my studio.

4. Don't know why we keep talking about Maschine though. It's no longer relevant. While I own Maschine, I have no reason to turn it on other than seeing what NI adds to another update.

1. Well, for people used to using production gear with real mixing capabilities, it does suck. For people only used to hardware MPC's and nothing beyond that, the Ren must be a gift from God!

2. Well, what features are unique to daw's wasn't what we were discussing. We were discussing features being best suited for DAW's not being needed in the Ren. You brought up Audio Tracks. This, IMO, is something better suited for a DAW than a beat machine! Actually, the whole list of features requests you typed is all stuff better suited for DAWs!

3. Bro, if you are able to mix, it's a mixer! Each pad has gain, pan, mute, solo, auxiliaries, HP/LP filters, EQ, individual outs, and it all routes to a master out. The only thing missing is individual gain meters. This is no different than an analog mixer like a Mackie VLZ Pro, Yamaha MG, or something similar!

4. Maschine is still very relevant! And it should be considered very relevant in Akai's eyes. Maschine is probably the number 1 product stealing hardware MPC users and potential Ren customers! If there is one product Akai needs to keep an eye on, it's Maschine. Maschine is the closest thing in the software realm to an MPC (excluding Ren). This is why we keep talking about it. You can't not talk about your biggest current competition. This is like saying Samsung/Android is not relevant because of iPhone/iOS or vice versa. Like wise, NI better have their eyes on Ren as well. Be too cool you gon' lose!

DJ Hellfire wrote:

JAH wrote:1. I am simply saying "some" people prefer one thing over another. I think everyone agrees that the Ren's mixer can be improved...but saying it sucks? I disagree. I can wait until Akai addresses functions that I believe are more important.

2. Audio tracks is not a feature unique to DAWs. Plenty of sampling workstations have audio tracks to include the MPC 50000, MV 8800, and several keyboard work stations. Then Ren should have the same.

3. You may be able to mix on Maschine but it doesn't have a mixer by any stretch of the imagination. Pads are like tracks on Maschine....but like and actually having tracks is two different things. There is nothing wrong with a product being unique and doing things it's own way. But because Maschine performs this way, it can never replace the Ren in my studio.

4. Don't know why we keep talking about Maschine though. It's no longer relevant. While I own Maschine, I have no reason to turn it on other than seeing what NI adds to another update.

1. Well, for people used to using production gear with real mixing capabilities, it does suck. For people only used to hardware MPC's and nothing beyond that, the Ren must be a gift from God!

2. Well, what features are unique to daw's wasn't what we were discussing. We were discussing features being best suited for DAW's not being needed in the Ren. You brought up Audio Tracks. This, IMO, is something better suited for a DAW than a beat machine! Actually, the whole list of features requests you typed is all stuff better suited for DAWs!

3. Bro, if you are able to mix, it's a mixer! Each pad has gain, pan, mute, solo, auxiliaries, HP/LP filters, EQ, individual outs, and it all routes to a master out. The only thing missing is individual gain meters. This is no different than an analog mixer like a Mackie VLZ Pro, Yamaha MG, or something similar!

4. Maschine is still very relevant! And it should be considered very relevant in Akai's eyes. Maschine is probably the number 1 product stealing hardware MPC users and potential Ren customers! If there is one product Akai needs to keep an eye on, it's Maschine. Maschine is the closest thing in the software realm to an MPC (excluding Ren). This is why we keep talking about it. You can't not talk about your biggest current competition. This is like saying Samsung/Android is not relevant because of iPhone/iOS or vice versa. Like wise, NI better have their eyes on Ren as well. Be too cool you gon' lose!

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DJ Hellfire wrote:

JAH wrote:1. I am simply saying "some" people prefer one thing over another. I think everyone agrees that the Ren's mixer can be improved...but saying it sucks? I disagree. I can wait until Akai addresses functions that I believe are more important.

2. Audio tracks is not a feature unique to DAWs. Plenty of sampling workstations have audio tracks to include the MPC 50000, MV 8800, and several keyboard work stations. Then Ren should have the same.

3. You may be able to mix on Maschine but it doesn't have a mixer by any stretch of the imagination. Pads are like tracks on Maschine....but like and actually having tracks is two different things. There is nothing wrong with a product being unique and doing things it's own way. But because Maschine performs this way, it can never replace the Ren in my studio.

4. Don't know why we keep talking about Maschine though. It's no longer relevant. While I own Maschine, I have no reason to turn it on other than seeing what NI adds to another update.

1. Well, for people used to using production gear with real mixing capabilities, it does suck. For people only used to hardware MPC's and nothing beyond that, the Ren must be a gift from God!

2. Well, what features are unique to daw's wasn't what we were discussing. We were discussing features being best suited for DAW's not being needed in the Ren. You brought up Audio Tracks. This, IMO, is something better suited for a DAW than a beat machine! Actually, the whole list of features requests you typed is all stuff better suited for DAWs!

3. Bro, if you are able to mix, it's a mixer! Each pad has gain, pan, mute, solo, auxiliaries, HP/LP filters, EQ, individual outs, and it all routes to a master out. The only thing missing is individual gain meters. This is no different than an analog mixer like a Mackie VLZ Pro, Yamaha MG, or something similar!

4. Maschine is still very relevant! And it should be considered very relevant in Akai's eyes. Maschine is probably the number 1 product stealing hardware MPC users and potential Ren customers! If there is one product Akai needs to keep an eye on, it's Maschine. Maschine is the closest thing in the software realm to an MPC (excluding Ren). This is why we keep talking about it. You can't not talk about your biggest current competition. This is like saying Samsung/Android is not relevant because of iPhone/iOS or vice versa. Like wise, NI better have their eyes on Ren as well. Be too cool you gon' lose!

1. I prefer to use the production gear with real mixing capabilities with the Ren. I certainly didn't acquire the Ren or any MPC to do what Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, DP, etc are best suited for. The Ren is a godsend for MPCs users period. But of course I can acknowledge that those wanting the Ren to be Pro Tools today may be frustrated. So you have no choice but to use the Ren for what it does today and tomorrow as there is no indication that 1.3 will have the mixing capabilities being discussed. I don't think the Ren/Studio will ever be all things for all people....that is reality.

2. Audio tracks belong in all music production workstations...both software and hardware. This is vital for those of us the actually use hardware. I should be able to record my hardware synth onto audio tracks within the Ren like I could do with the MPC 5000 and MV 8800....like I can do with MPC 2500 running JJOS, Fantom G, Korg Kronos, etc.

3. It's possible to do some mixing on Maschine but it certainly doesn't have a mixer. I just opened up 1.8 to be sure of it. I don't see 128 channel strip mixer with Insert/Send Effects, Volume Faders, Pan knobs, level meters, routing, etc. Please let me know when it does then I will modify my statement.

4. Maschine is not relevant. I have actually tried to stay away from the topic. And after I write this, you won't see me writing about Maschine until NI drops the next OS update. If you visit the NI Forum and you look at all the feature suggestions...you will find that many of them are possible with the Ren or a hardware MPC. But if you look at the Ren's feature suggestion threads.....you will find these are features not found in Maschine. Unless NI comes up with a completely revamped hardware interface, Akai doesn't need to look over their shoulder. IMO, Akai should stay the course and continue to add features that were possible in hardware MPCs that are missing in the Ren (Audio tracks, Step Edit, Mono routing, MTC Slave, Zooming on LCD, Grid Edit on LCD, etc). While doing this, they should expand on functions already possible such as 64 bit, realtime time stretching/pitch shifting, file formats, etc., and eventually the mixer.

In the end...the only way you lose is if you use a product that doesn't meet your needs (I hope you are not doing that. ). Obviously, from my daily posts about the Ren in this forum....and the lack of me posting in the NI Forum (very rarely post there)...I am winning as I use the product that meets my needs.

DJ Hellfire wrote:3. Bro, if you are able to mix, it's a mixer! Each pad has gain, pan, mute, solo, auxiliaries, HP/LP filters, EQ, individual outs, and it all routes to a master out. The only thing missing is individual gain meters. This is no different than an analog mixer like a Mackie VLZ Pro, Yamaha MG, or something similar!

4. Maschine is still very relevant! And it should be considered very relevant in Akai's eyes. Maschine is probably the number 1 product stealing hardware MPC users and potential Ren customers! If there is one product Akai needs to keep an eye on, it's Maschine. Maschine is the closest thing in the software realm to an MPC (excluding Ren). This is why we keep talking about it. You can't not talk about your biggest current competition. This is like saying Samsung/Android is not relevant because of iPhone/iOS or vice versa:

JAH wrote:3. It's possible to do some mixing on Maschine but it certainly doesn't have a mixer. I just opened up 1.8 to be sure of it. I don't see 128 channel strip mixer with Insert/Send Effects, Volume Faders, Pan knobs, level meters, routing, etc. Please let me know when it does then I will modify my statement.

4. Maschine is not relevant. I have actually tried to stay away from the topic. And after I write this, you won't see me writing about Maschine until NI drops the next OS update. If you visit the NI Forum and you look at all the feature suggestions...you will find that many of them are possible with the Ren or a hardware MPC. But if you look at the Ren's feature suggestion threads.....you will find these are features not found in Maschine. Unless NI comes up with a completely revamped hardware interface, Akai doesn't need to look over their shoulder. IMO, Akai should stay the course and continue to add features that were possible in hardware MPCs that are missing in the Ren (Audio tracks, Step Edit, Mono routing, MTC Slave, Zooming on LCD, Grid Edit on LCD, etc). While doing this, they should expand on functions already possible such as 64 bit, realtime time stretching/pitch shifting, file formats, etc., and eventually the mixer.

3. Well, let's put it another way! If you take away the mixer GUI on the computer screen from the Ren, but left all the same functionality and was only able use the mixer functions from the hardware Q-Links and hardware screen, then would you consider the MPC Software to not have a mixer?

A channel strip layout does not make something a mixer. It just organizes and consolidates mixer controls to one area. My mic pre has a channel strip but that does not make it a mixer! All those mixer functions you listed as mixer features are available in Maschine. They just aren't consolidated into a channel strip GUI! But all those knobs and functions and routing exists. The Mackie VLZ Pro and Yamaha MG style mixers also do not have individual channel gain meters and each channel relies on the main output meter, same as Maschine!

4. Some of the feature suggestions for Ren are available in Maschine, mainly some of the major ones like the plugin handling and 64 bit to name a couple, as well as add/remove slice, hardware zoom and scroll, NDC, vintage mode for Studio, etc, and more! Acknowledging Maschine as a worthy opponent will only help make Ren better. Bringing multitimbral instruments before Maschine did was a great step! But to be honest, there really isn't too much you can do in one that you can't do in the other. Most things are just done differently, some more efficient in one than the other!

DJ Hellfire wrote:

JAH wrote:3. It's possible to do some mixing on Maschine but it certainly doesn't have a mixer. I just opened up 1.8 to be sure of it. I don't see 128 channel strip mixer with Insert/Send Effects, Volume Faders, Pan knobs, level meters, routing, etc. Please let me know when it does then I will modify my statement.

4. Maschine is not relevant. I have actually tried to stay away from the topic. And after I write this, you won't see me writing about Maschine until NI drops the next OS update. If you visit the NI Forum and you look at all the feature suggestions...you will find that many of them are possible with the Ren or a hardware MPC. But if you look at the Ren's feature suggestion threads.....you will find these are features not found in Maschine. Unless NI comes up with a completely revamped hardware interface, Akai doesn't need to look over their shoulder. IMO, Akai should stay the course and continue to add features that were possible in hardware MPCs that are missing in the Ren (Audio tracks, Step Edit, Mono routing, MTC Slave, Zooming on LCD, Grid Edit on LCD, etc). While doing this, they should expand on functions already possible such as 64 bit, realtime time stretching/pitch shifting, file formats, etc., and eventually the mixer.

3. Well, let's put it another way! If you take away the mixer GUI on the computer screen from the Ren, but left all the same functionality and was only able use the mixer functions from the hardware Q-Links and hardware screen, then would you consider the MPC Software to not have a mixer?

A channel strip layout does not make something a mixer. It just organizes and consolidates mixer controls to one area. My mic pre has a channel strip but that does not make it a mixer! All those mixer functions you listed as mixer features are available in Maschine. They just aren't consolidated into a channel strip GUI! But all those knobs and functions and routing exists. The Mackie VLZ Pro and Yamaha MG style mixers also do not have individual channel gain meters and each channel relies on the main output meter, same as Maschine!

4. Some of the feature suggestions for Ren are available in Maschine, mainly some of the major ones like the plugin handling and 64 bit to name a couple, as well as add/remove slice, hardware zoom and scroll, NDC, vintage mode for Studio, etc, and more! Acknowledging Maschine as a worthy opponent will only help make Ren better. Bringing multitimbral instruments before Maschine did was a great step! But to be honest, there really isn't too much you can do in one that you can't do in the other. Most things are just done differently, some more efficient in one than the other!

3. You are wrong my friend. A multi-channel, channel strip layout which allows you to quickly balance multiple levels, panning, routing, and effects is a mixer.....at least in this universe. I can't speak for alternate realities though. The Ren has a drum program mixer and a track mixer, Maschine doesn't.

4. Plugin handling and 64 Bit are features found in most DAWs...not features specific to Maschine. Add/remove slice, hardware zoom, etc are MPC features...not features unique to Maschine. NDC (which Maschine implements in a round about manner) has been in the JJ OS years before Maschine and old samplers like the ASR-10. Maschine is not relevant to the development of the Ren IMO. There is nothing unique to Maschine that I believe is a must have in the Ren. The features most want in the Ren are from hardware MPCs and other DAWs on the market.

And do you actually use Maschine now? I don't. I have no reason too now that I have a Ren.

JAH wrote:

DJ Hellfire wrote:
3. Well, let's put it another way! If you take away the mixer GUI on the computer screen from the Ren, but left all the same functionality and was only able use the mixer functions from the hardware Q-Links and hardware screen, then would you consider the MPC Software to not have a mixer?

A channel strip layout does not make something a mixer. It just organizes and consolidates mixer controls to one area. My mic pre has a channel strip but that does not make it a mixer! All those mixer functions you listed as mixer features are available in Maschine. They just aren't consolidated into a channel strip GUI! But all those knobs and functions and routing exists. The Mackie VLZ Pro and Yamaha MG style mixers also do not have individual channel gain meters and each channel relies on the main output meter, same as Maschine!

4. Some of the feature suggestions for Ren are available in Maschine, mainly some of the major ones like the plugin handling and 64 bit to name a couple, as well as add/remove slice, hardware zoom and scroll, NDC, vintage mode for Studio, etc, and more! Acknowledging Maschine as a worthy opponent will only help make Ren better. Bringing multitimbral instruments before Maschine did was a great step! But to be honest, there really isn't too much you can do in one that you can't do in the other. Most things are just done differently, some more efficient in one than the other!

3. You are wrong my friend. A multi-channel, channel strip layout which allows you to quickly balance multiple levels, panning, routing, and effects is a mixer.....at least in this universe. I can't speak for alternate realities though. The Ren has a drum program mixer and a track mixer, Maschine doesn't.

4. Plugin handling and 64 Bit are features found in most DAWs...not features specific to Maschine. Add/remove slice, hardware zoom, etc are MPC features...not features unique to Maschine. NDC (which Maschine implements in a round about manner) has been in the JJ OS years before Maschine and old samplers like the ASR-10. Maschine is not relevant to the development of the Ren IMO. There is nothing unique to Maschine that I believe is a must have in the Ren. The features most want in the Ren are from hardware MPCs and other DAWs on the market.

And do you actually use Maschine now? I don't. I have no reason too now that I have a Ren.

3. Obviously, you know this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that a layout, be it graphical or physical is not what makes a mixer a mixer. The functionality and actually being able to mix, regardless of how it's laid out, is what makes it a mixer! Not all mixers are laid out in a channel strip form factor. Like this Neve Summing Mixer for example:


4. I didn't know we were talking specifics though! There's hardly any feature in the world that's specific to only one piece of software or hardware. Going on specifics, there's hardly any feature request for the Ren that can't be done in some other program already!

Whether I use Maschine now or not isn't relevant at all. When I got Maschine, I wasn't using my 2500 because I had no reason too. But there were still several features of the 2500 that I still wanted in Maschine, as well as features from other software that I wasn't currently using that were better than what was in Maschine!

DJ Hellfire wrote:
3. Obviously, you know this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that a layout, be it graphical or physical is not what makes a mixer a mixer. The functionality and actually being able to mix, regardless of how it's laid out, is what makes it a mixer! Not all mixers are laid out in a channel strip form factor. Like this Neve Summing Mixer for example:


4. I didn't know we were talking specifics though! There's hardly any feature in the world that's specific to only one piece of software or hardware. Going on specifics, there's hardly any feature request for the Ren that can't be done in some other program already!

Whether I use Maschine now or not isn't relevant at all. When I got Maschine, I wasn't using my 2500 because I had no reason too. But there were still several features of the 2500 that I still wanted in Maschine, as well as features from other software that I wasn't currently using that were better than what was in Maschine!

3. Seriously...I am actually I have no idea where you are taking this conversation. You displayed a $3000 plus mixer which actually proves my point. It is a multi-channel mixer without faders but plenty of knobs to easily adjust the volume and pan of audio sources routed to it. Maschine doesn't have this.

Now take a look at Pro Tools, Logic, Nuendo, Cubase, Digital Performer, Reason, Studio One, FL Studio, Live, Sound Track Pro, etc to include the Ren...these all have mixers. Even NI's Kontakt has an actual mixer. Maschine doesn't have a mixer, sorry brother.

4. I like to always discuss specifics and details. From day 1, those buying Maschine wan't it to immediately be an MPC. Most of the feature requests have I seen are specific to MPCs. Akai doesn't need to pay attention to NI at least not at this point. They only need to focus on making it 64 Bit to take full advantage of 64 bit operating systems (this week, UAD finally make their OSX plugins 64 bit)...giving us multi-core support, and simply add remaining hardware MPCs functions that are missing. There is nothing specific to Maschine that Akai needs to concern themselves about. While NI needs to focus their attention on what their consumers want.....which is more MPC features. Don't take my word though....simply read the feature suggestion threads.

It is very relevant whether you use the Ren or Maschine now. If Maschine is so great, why don't you place the Ren back in its box and primarily use Maschine. Of course, I know you won't do that for many reasons. I certainly wouldn't.