Sample Edit Trim Mode improvements needed

Sample Edit Trim/Chop Mode is the heart of MPCs for sample-based producers. This Mode needs to be robust with features that rivals and surpasses all other samplers. Here is my feedback regarding improving this mode.

SAMPLE EDIT MODE

1. Waveform display.

A. Size. While the Ren's LCD is similar in size as hardware MPCs like the 2500/2000XL/1000, the size of sample waveforms are smaller. The reason is Akai added a fourth line of data (Loop Lock, Root Note, and Tune) to Sample Edit Mode LCD. These parameters are typically hidden and accessed via [WINDOW] button. I would like to see this changed to match the spec of hardware MPCs to allow a larger waveform. Even better, I would like to press [FULL SCREEN] button to expand the waveform to take up the entire LCD.

B. View. This function is missing from the Ren and found on hardware MPCs. It allows you to view the waveform's LEFT, RIGHT channel, or both channels. There is plenty of room on the Ren's LCD to fit this in.

C. Play position indicator. The Ren's software has a play position indicator which is a godsend to editing samples. But there is no such functionality on the Ren. I actually have mixed feelings about this one. While it would be great in the Ren could do this, the way the LCD is designed it probably wouldn't look all that great. Both Maschine and the MPC 2500/1000 JJOS have this feature. But since their LCDs only have two colors and the response of the LCD has some lag in this regard….the play position indicator doesn't look all that great. It would look much better on a colored LCD. (I would buy an MPC Ren XL with a colored LCD).

2. Data dial. This has to be my biggest gripe. The data dial is completely useless in Sample Editing. The Ren arguably has the best data wheel of any MPC but it is rendered ineffective. You can only adjust start/end points by 1's. In some legacy hardware MPCs, you can use the [Cursor] + [Shift] buttons to move the cursor to higher points within the numeric display. In other words, you can use the data wheel to edit via 10s, 100s, 1000s, etc as you can do currently with Qlinks.



3. Zooming In / Out. There is no way to Zoom In / Out to a part of the waveform and edit in fine detail on the Ren's LCD. It is the only flagship MPC with waveform editing that doesn't have this function. Hardware MPCs use the [Window] function for Fine Editing. The F buttons are used to Zoom In or Zoom Out. In 1.3, the Ren will allow you to use [Shift] + [Cursor] buttons to Zoom In / Out in the software only. This is very unintuitive using the Ren as these buttons are further apart. It is ok in the Studio as the buttons are next to one another. But this is still no substitute to the Fine Editing and single button access to zoom. A very popular request in these forums is to use the Qlinks to Zoom In / Out. This would work very well with the Ren as 4 Qlinks are unassigned in this mode. It would be less intuitive in the MPC Studio though. Regardless, this is an aspect of the sample editor that really needs more attention in my opinion.

Additionally, recent hardware MPCs have Linear and Logarithmic displays which is great when you are editing waveforms that were recorded at low levels.





4. Window. As mentioned above, the [Window] button is not fully utilized in this mode. In hardware MPCs, pressing [Window] when the cursor is on the name of a sample allows you to Copy, Delete (one or all), or Rename a sample from the hardware. You can also Tune or change Root Note of a sample.

A. Sample List. A sample list page that displays all the samples in memory would be a nice touch, It should look very similar to the browser on the hardware. I would add a tagging option to allow end users to tag and delete multiple samples.

5. Time stretch / Pitch Shifting. It's 2013…and leading software DAWs and Samplers had added time stretching and pitch shifting in real time. Some of these products include adding warp markers to stretch and snap samples to a grip…basically quantizing audio. I would like to see improvements in this area starting with taking full advantage of the Izotope Radius technology already being utilized in the Ren. Logic also uses Radius and has more complete control to include stretching from 12.5% to 800% and pitch shifting from -36 t0 +36 semitones.






6. Audition Programs. The Ren has a feature to allow you to audition slices directly from the pads. But it could really use the same type of function for sounds in a program. I would like to see a function in Sample Edit Trim where the pads play the actual sample assigned to them within a program. So when I strike Pad A01, it plays a 'Kick' drum sample and the sample's waveform is displayed in the editor. Then when I strike Pad A02, to plays a 'Snare' drum and the sample's waveform is displayed in the editor. This would make editing samples across an entire program effortless.

7. Audition Slices. Short and sweet…Audition slices should be ON by default. This is what I believe most users expect when entering chop mode. In Chop Mode, most want to quickly select/edit slices not play the entire waveform or a loop.

A. Editing slices. I would also like to have the currently selected slice centered in the editor. My Fantom Fantom G is flawless in this regard. When you select a slice, its start/end point is centered in the editor. And when you adjust these points, the actual samples is shifted left/right. This video showcases it better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj-G7cQ9cIs

8. Link Slices. Turning Link Slices Off allows you to create slice regions that overlap. I really like this feature. It works great on slice end points. However, it doesn't perform well with slice start points. Slice start points are limited in range. The slice start point of Slice 3 can't be set to a value lower then the slice start point of Slice 2. I would like to see this changed. When Link Slices is off, we should be able to adjust the Start/End point of any slice to any value.

9. Nondestructive Chopping & Crop. The Ren does an outstanding job with its Crop On/Off function when used for slicing. The only issue is that Crop Off creates duplicate samples which could easily eat up all your memory. Who wants to have 128 copies of the same sample in memory. What most of use want is a way for this function to work as is but not create duplicate files. All the slices should reference a single file as seen in samples like the the MPC 2500/1000 JJOS, ASR-10, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpGjMDwa3A0



10. Manual slicing. I would like to see a 4th Chop to mode….Manual. This mode should default to zero slices with the sample assigned to Pad A01. Two F keys should be dedicated to Add or Delete a slice marker. I would add a position indicator of some sort to be controlled via the data dial (and Qlinks). The F keys will Add or Delete slice markers at the current position indicator location. To make room for these F functions, F5 [Convert] can be included as an editing function under F 6 [Edit]. [Audition] can be made permanently on so it can be removed or hidden in a sub menu. In the software, I would like to see slices being added with a single mouse click and double clicking slices to remove them.



11. Pad Play Modes. The Ren's pads auditions Samples using Note On / Poly play modes. This is not always intuitive. Some users would like to have samples triggered as One Shot / Mono. This is especially useful in Chop Mode. When I slice up a drum break, I want to audition it in Chop Mode the same way I would when recording a sequence; that is one-shot, mono per pad. Most users I believe do not use note on the play a drum program. So at a minimum, I would like to see Pad Play Mode options in Sample Edit Trim/Chop Mode to allow end users to choose how they want the samples to be triggered.

12. Create Events. When using the Convert function, you can generate a MIDI sequence to playback your slices. You can spread the slices out over 128 bars. Great function…but I would like to choose the destination…Sequence and Track that these events will be imported to.

13. Sample Timeline. The Sample Time Line is displayed in Samples or Seconds. I would like to see a 3rd option to display it in Bars/Beats. This is more useful to figure out how a sampled loop will fit within your sequence.

14. BPM Match. MPCs going back to the MPC 2000 had a BPM detect function. This worked perfectly in the MPC 2000 and 2000XL. But it was broken or left out completely in more recent MPCs. This one should be brought back and perhaps also incorporated into Timestretch and Pitch shifting. Additionally, it would be nice if a [Window] function which displays info about the sample includes its actual BPM.



15. Sample formats. I would like the Ren to load as many sample formats as possible. Akai, Audio CD tracks, and m4a (iTunes) formats should be added at a minimum. Future support for MV-8800, Sound Fonts, Maschine, and other popular formats should be added.

Even though it doesn't have to do directly with trimming, I'll add reverse / pingpong loop here.

Being one who does a lot of break chopping, I must say reverse / pingpong loop is a must for chops.
Currently with Ren, the method is:
-I chop a break
-I go and find the slices in Finder (Mac),
-copy+paste+reverse
-bring slice back into Ren,
-I have to go back and adjust sample end to match the new length,
-add loop

Having the feature to set all slices to reverse loop upon chopping would be a time-saver!

9. Time stretch / Pitch shifting 10% [ 1 ] x
13. Link Slices 10% [ 1 ] x
15. Manual slicing 20% [ 2 ] x
16. Pad play modes 10% [ 1 ] x
19. BPM detect 20% [ 2 ] x

Bravo tomodachi, Bravo! You are definitely good with me too, home away from homie! But dayumm! That post must have taken you a week to put together.
For my workflow and since I'm not as experienced/ good as most of you guys with the MPC, I actually prefer using the computer's larger screen for waveform editing. I'm old anyway. This way, I don't need bifocals but still keep the geritol close.

My vote went as follows:

1. Time stretch/ Pitchshifting
2. BPM Detect ( not a necessity but def nice to have)
3. Audition slices (pains me that this was left out)
4. Editing slice start/ end points (seriously?)
5. Sample formats (I've got the entire EMU sound library in SF2. Kontakt as well but why waste an AU/ VST slot?)

Obviously, there were more goodies from the list that I would love to have but since we're limited to 5, my choices would improve my personal workflow. Thanks JAH, I know putting that list together with all the references had to be a pain in the oshidi!

sample formats is a must and as many as possible

would like to see effects processing this would take it into full blown sample editor

fade envelopes between chops would be very useful too especially if they translated to your program envelope

Thats a thought how hard would be to be able to have a drawable envelope as an option along with AHD with todays technology I would of thought the programmers could do it why not have an option that has no laws i.e. adsdr,ahd and the shape of envelope is the law and to be able to draw that would be very powerful indeed

GedaBlaq wrote:Bravo tomodachi, Bravo! You are definitely good with me too, home away from homie! But dayumm! That post must have taken you a week to put together.
For my workflow and since I'm not as experienced/ good as most of you guys with the MPC, I actually prefer using the computer's larger screen for waveform editing. I'm old anyway. This way, I don't need bifocals but still keep the geritol close.

My vote went as follows:

1. Time stretch/ Pitchshifting
2. BPM Detect ( not a necessity but def nice to have)
3. Audition slices (pains me that this was left out)
4. Editing slice start/ end points (seriously?)
5. Sample formats (I've got the entire EMU sound library in SF2. Kontakt as well but why waste an AU/ VST slot?)

Obviously, there were more goodies from the list that I would love to have but since we're limited to 5, my choices would improve my personal workflow. Thanks JAH, I know putting that list together with all the references had to be a pain in the oshidi!

You can Audition slices on the Ren. It just you have to press F4 button to turn it on. This is not really a big deal to turn it on...its just that most would want it on by default.

Personally, I like the waveform editing on my monitor too. But when I just want to work from the Ren's controller like a typical hardware MPC, sample editing is a headache. Sample editing on the LCD should perform just like an MPC 2500/1000. Otherwise, it isn't very useful.

A bpm detect function would be a vast convenience

Also, what was handy with Akai s5000, for example, was the option of using an external sample editor (I used s5000 with software called Ak.Sys by Akai):
you could double-click on a sample, and it would open in a sample editor of your choice. I often did some little EQing, saved it, and it flew straight back into the sampler.
This would be a neat addition (especially with the only current way of doing a reverse loop, which takes editing the sample in an audio editor and then sending it back).

Good post Jah.!
A bpm detect is very handy.

peace

some good ones in there jah,
a BIGGIE for me needed is "SNAP TO REGIONS"in chop mode and then an "EXTRACT" button after that see FL.Sedison for example...

makes chopping out what you want and extracting perfect chopped regions painless and extrmemely quick,i havent found anything else with this function or quicker and ive used a lot down the decades!!

if Image Line can code up something like edison ,AKAI then can too !

heres edisons snap modes:see readout link below for more:
http://www.image-line.com/support/FLHel ... ison_3.htm

Snap
Snap to grid (1) - Envelope points and selections snap to the background grid.
Snap to regions (2) - [b]Envelope points and selections snap to the region markers.
Snap to samples (3) - Envelope points and selections snap to samples.
Snap to zero-crossing (4) - Envelope points and selections snap to zero crossings. This is the point where the waveform crosses the 0 amplitude line and is useful to avoid clicks.
Snap to pitch period (5) - Envelope points and selections snap to the period of any pitch detected at the selection point. [/b]

Good stuff Jah.

Not really sure this is covered but I would like a FAST mode for those of us who like to work fast.
Where I can stay in my normal pad bank mode with 16 samples per bank then hit the pad I want to edit and the mpc automatically displays the waveform assigned to that pad in whatever mode the sample is assigned in the program i.e. one shot etc.

I see the start point and end point and can quickly change the start point and end point non destructively. The start point resolution is linked to the zoom ala machine and can also be set by punching a button at the correct time.

If you hit a different pad then the MPC updates to display the sample assigned to that pad.

That would allow me to mess around with samples at warp speed.

In short I would like to see an editing mode that is more like maschine but with 8 pad banks. I have always hated the idea of leaving a program just to set a start point of a sample.

All this would then allow u to quickly duplicate a sample in an Existing program that contained other samples and easily change the duplicate to have a new start end point.

Tab to Next / previous transient buttons would also be useful
G

Indeed, good stuff Jah. Hard to pick only 5, cos I want all of them. Or am I too greedy now?

For sample edit mode, I'd strongly suggest having a better and quicker way to zoom in.

For example, I've learned from my audio editor (Twisted Wave) that vertical scrolling with laptop trackpad to zoom in/out is very handy.
I find myself doing that with Ren, and would love to see that happen.

When I say tab to transient I mean if the cursor is on the start time then you can tab the start time to increment/decrement to each transient saving you burning up the start time knobs. Same if you were over the end point.