I want an SP 1200 but damn!!

Horseclick wrote:How the hell is the reissue's got a better power supply with SMPS if the only advantage is reduced heat vs more noisy and injecting natsyness into the audio path.

Is anyone saying that, or are you just assuming it based on a wiki article about power supplies in general?

I had read that the grey and blacks sounded exactly the same (maybe with the exception of the last reissues without the filters).

@Jimmie it will only get worse as time progresses, im on the same hunt as you, like Clint said prior sp1200's are very rare here in the UK especially for buyers , US guys have a healthy selection on ebay but UK/Europe Nada.

Why can't you buy one from the US?

SimonInAustralia wrote:

Horseclick wrote:How the hell is the reissue's got a better power supply with SMPS if the only advantage is reduced heat vs more noisy and injecting natsyness into the audio path.

Is anyone saying that, or are you just assuming it based on a wiki article about power supplies in general?

I had read that the grey and blacks sounded exactly the same (maybe with the exception of the last reissues without the filters).

@Jimmie it will only get worse as time progresses, im on the same hunt as you, like Clint said prior sp1200's are very rare here in the UK especially for buyers , US guys have a healthy selection on ebay but UK/Europe Nada.

Why can't you buy one from the US?

shipping and custom fee's are very expensive

People often say "better resissue power supply" "don't overheat" etc but never talk about low level noise hiss hum, but heat aint no problem, injecting nasty noise in the signal path is and effecting gear around it is a problem,

my assumption is not based on sp's but gear in general linear power supplies are more desired in general in the pro audio world.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OfkOBCllIc?t=1m9s[/youtube]

listen to the noise in the vid not ideal but you get my point


I linked the wiki for extra info

"SMPS = High switching noise
LINEAR= Low noise and tight regulation"

"“The Conventional PWM technique processes power by controlling the duty cycle and interrupting the power flow. All the switching devices are hard-switched with abrupt changes of currents and voltages, which results in severe switching losses and noises.”"

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/8553714-post20.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/8752063-post13.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/8657169-post4.html


@simon add 20% plus change to any US purchase to factor in how much extra we pay for importing over into Europe.

Also I im defiantly shooting for a OG 1200,

Don't bother trying to explain to Simon... he thinks everybody from europe who buys an overpriced SP from the US because they can't find one in europe is an inpatient retard with too much money.

Horseclick wrote:People often say "better resissue power supply" "don't overheat" etc but never talk about low level noise hiss hum, but heat aint no problem, injecting nasty noise in the signal path is and effecting gear around it is a problem,

my assumption is not based on sp's but gear in general linear power supplies are more desired in general in the pro audio world.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OfkOBCllIc?t=1m9s[/youtube]

listen to the noise in the vid not ideal but you get my point


I linked the wiki for extra info

"SMPS = High switching noise
LINEAR= Low noise and tight regulation"

"“The Conventional PWM technique processes power by controlling the duty cycle and interrupting the power flow. All the switching devices are hard-switched with abrupt changes of currents and voltages, which results in severe switching losses and noises.”"

Does not really mean anything unless you are directly comparing an original SP and a reissue SP (with newer power supply) side by side.

You can not simply assume that the newer power supply is automatically going to sound quieter, because of different power supply types, it really depends on how the circuits are designed as to whether the different power supply types will make one version noisier than the other.

The video that you posted above sort of proves that point, you are using the SP in that video as an example of a newer SP that is noisy. But that reissue SP has the same older/hot/linear power supply as the original grey SP (indicated by large square fuse holder and rocker switch), not the newer/quieter/cooler power supply (which has the round power push button and no rear external fuse holder). So that particular earlier reissue SP will/should sound exactly the same, in terms of power supply noise, to an original grey SP version.

I do not think that you can compare old vs new SP power supply noise based on information about power supplies that is not directly related to the actual SP power supplies and other SP circuits. The only valid test for this would be a side by side comparison, using exactly the same sounds/beats, and from what I have read, when that is done, they are supposed to sound identical.

One of the gearslutz posts you linked to above says pretty much the same thing...

dualflip on gearslutz wrote:It depends, in theory the switching does "irradiate" em fields, but with proper shielding or construction techniques it might not be a problem, and the switching noise induced in the lines is usually so high that is considered to be negligible, and they might have worked a way to do it without noise being an issue. Its not the first nor the last equipment which will have SMPS in it, new SSl consoles have SMPS in them, so they must have figured out a way to make it work.

Horseclick wrote:@simon add 20% plus change to any US purchase to factor in how much extra we pay for importing over into Europe.

$1500 + 20% = $1800.

And you could pick one up for less than $1500 in the US.

Doesn't mean you have to pay retarded prices, such as $2500 + 20% = $3000.

Paying $3000 for an SP from a ripoff dealer, such as Armens, when you can buy exactly the same thing from a private seller, or reasonably priced commercial seller, for $1800, seems retarded to me.

I really don't see why you would do it, Armens is not adding anything, let alone $1200 extra value, to an SP, you are just lining his pockets and driving the street price up by paying that.

We have to pay just as much in shipping, 10% tax, plus any import duties/taxes/charges, so I don't really see it costing that much more to ship US to Europe than US to Australia.

I really don't get why you can't just buy direct from the US, I do it all the time, I don't see anything radically different or more expensive in shipping US-Europe than US-Australia.

SimonInAustralia wrote:

Horseclick wrote:@simon add 20% plus change to any US purchase to factor in how much extra we pay for importing over into Europe.

$1500 + 20% = $1800.

And you could pick one up for less than $1500 in the US.

Doesn't mean you have to pay retarded prices, such as $2500 + 20% = $3000.

Paying $3000 for an SP from a ripoff dealer, such as Armens, when you can buy exactly the same thing from a private seller, or reasonably priced commercial seller, for $1800, seems retarded to me.

last dude I asked on the mpc sales forum quoted me a shipping price inc insurance tracking yada yada "$842.03"!

add that value to the 1650 he wanted for it then add 20% vat plus some other change and your in the $3000 ballpark.

im gonna find one in Europe to cut out most of that cost.

Bad example show casing noise linear vs smps but
the noise in the vid can be a combo of things, wiring/preamps on mixer/mixer as I think he cranked the gain......

if I recall correctly aussies didn't have to pay tax on anything under $1000
so whatever you may have scored in the past from the US of A - peanuts , Europe is a whole different ballgame.

but whatever it may be, im waiting for the right one, still believe linear is better then smps in general may not apply to how it was implemented with the sp1200s but i'd rather a linear power supply.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/93121-brief-description-linear-vs-smps.html

Horseclick wrote:last dude I asked on the mpc sales forum quoted me a shipping price inc insurance tracking yada yada "$842.03"!

You do not have to pay $850 for shipping. That is the same as saying you have to pay $2500 for an SP.

You do not have to accept "last dude"s shipping quote as an indicator of what it has to cost for US-Europe shipping.

There are many different levels of service, and price, for international shipping out of the US.

A quote of $850 would have been for an international courier service, such as UPS/DHL/FedEX, or the fastest USPS Global Express Guaranteed service.

I would have asked the seller to ship using a slower/cheaper shipping method, such as USPS Priority Mail International airmail service, which would probably have come in around $100-150.

If they still came back with $850 for shipping, I would ask for the shipping weight and dimensions, and find a cheaper shipping service/cost myself.

If they would not ship using a cheaper method, I would look elsewhere.


Also, just because a seller lists an item as US shipping only, it does not hurt to ask if they will make an exception, and I find maybe 50% of the time they will.

So you do not have to let "US shipping only" necessarily narrow the options as much as it might first seem either.

Horseclick wrote:if I recall correctly aussies didn't have to pay tax on anything under $1000
so whatever you may have scored in the past from the US of A - peanuts , Europe is a whole different ballgame.

We pay 10% GST (goods and services tax) on anything over $1000, plus customs/import fees, plus some items will also have additional import duties/fees which could be another 5%, or more, on top of that.

On an item that is declared/insured for a value over $1000, as an SP1200 might be, it is the same ballgame.

It is not a matter of having scored something in the past from the US for peanuts, I do it all the time, have been for 20 years, and still do not see a substantial difference in US-Europe costs versus US-Australia costs (for items declared at over $1000).

Horseclick wrote:but whatever it may be, im waiting for the right one, still believe linear is better then smps in general may not apply to how it was implemented with the sp1200s but i'd rather a linear power supply.

I would want to see/hear a couple of direct side by side comparisons, before I would believe either way.

I'm not convinced they sound different just based on what some people think, who most probably have not done, or heard, a direct side by side comparison themselves, or based on general switched mode vs linear power supply theory that does not directly relate to real life in the SP.

I would probably go for the reissue with the newer power supply, if they sounded exactly the same, for the newer components and less heat generated, and less heat stress internally to other components.

But sure, if the original grey version sounds better, in actual listening tests that I can hear myself, or is better in some other tangible way, that can be demonstrated and proven, then I would be all for it, but most of the original grey love seems to be based on hype, not facts.

I've got the SP1200 The Art and the Science book here at the moment. There is some mention of the new Vs old power supplies debate. The concensus appears to be that the OG grey SP1200 with its constant power delivery is the desirable model.

"the heat that is generated is not really a major issue and is common with any audio equipment fitted with a linear power supply" - page 68

"FACT: many audio purists prefer the original SP-1200, fitted with the linear power supply because it provides a more constant voltage to the SP-1200's circuitry, which is considered to have a better bass response" - page 68

"the new SMPS power supply has a downside, in that it can induce noise into the audio circuits. This is a byproduct of how the supply switches quickly (to maintain the desired voltage), unlike the linear power supply on the original models." - page 70

The book is proving to be a good read so far, but there is some 'filler' as I was warned..and get this, it was written by an aussie named Simon.

Sounds good in theory, shouldn't be too hard to prove if true.

Seems like a good reason to go with the original, 'if' the bass response is better, and 'if' there is less noise.

You can't really argue about the heat, if you have used both, it is there, it really depends on the buyer to decide if that matters, it is just personal opinion. To me, it makes sense that the additional heat inside the older version is going to put more stress on the internal components than the cooler power supply in the later version, and those components are going to be older and possibly had more usage over it's lifetime.

There doesn't seem to be much proof of anything in those quotes from the book, a preference and an opinion offered as a fact, not really a technical fact, more that it is true that people believe these things, that doesn't necessarily make them correct.

The bass and noise theories sound interesting, and could be tested by putting a scope on the output of each power supply to confirm that there is actually a less constant voltage, with more noise, getting to the SP circuitry, along with side by side listening tests and audio analysis of exactly the same beats and tones playing out of both versions, to show that this possible less constant voltage and more noise into the circuitry actually results in a sound quality difference that you can hear between the same version.

If you were OCD enough, you could possibly even swap power supplies between the two versions, and see if any noise differences/problems follow the power supplies.

The SP book, after all, is just written by people like us on a forum, based on what they and other forum members/external parties believe, possibly without any real verifiable proof...to me, it doesn't make it fact.

I have seen it said on the SP forums, for example, that the same beats sound the same out of both versions.

I would still like to see/hear some side by side tests, through a high quality signal chain, and into some high quality convertors. There is no reason this can't be done, if someone can be bothered.

If that was done in a couple of different locations, with different sets of machines, to ensure there is not a problem with one of the SPs that causes a particular issue, then I would believe.

Clint wrote:The book is proving to be a good read so far, but there is some 'filler' as I was warned..and get this, it was written by an aussie named Simon.

Haha...WTF!

So what do you think Clint, are you up to the task of creating a book that can match, or better, the SP book in terms of quality of content and presentation?

Clint wrote:I've got the SP1200 The Art and the Science book here at the moment. There is some mention of the new Vs old power supplies debate. The concensus appears to be that the OG grey SP1200 with its constant power delivery is the desirable model.

"the heat that is generated is not really a major issue and is common with any audio equipment fitted with a linear power supply" - page 68

"FACT: many audio purists prefer the original SP-1200, fitted with the linear power supply because it provides a more constant voltage to the SP-1200's circuitry, which is considered to have a better bass response" - page 68

"the new SMPS power supply has a downside, in that it can induce noise into the audio circuits. This is a byproduct of how the supply switches quickly (to maintain the desired voltage), unlike the linear power supply on the original models." - page 70

The book is proving to be a good read so far, but there is some 'filler' as I was warned..and get this, it was written by an aussie named Simon.

Cheers Clint,

Just cemented my choice of a Linear power supply model lol

What a coincidence

Clint the book is it still preorder on amazon UK , I cant find it no more, there was a pre order for it but searching for it on amazon yields no results now.


@simon only fair test would be 2 models sitting together and being tested in the same conditions, noise floor and any noise in the chain would greatly differ from one set up to another.

same converters same cables 2 sp's sitting side by side only fair test.

The book is pretty much impossible to find these days.
They pop up occasionally on ebay for ridiculous amounts.
Last time I saw one the asking price was 500$.

Good luck chasing one down.

16pads wrote:The book is pretty much impossible to find these days.
They pop up occasionally on ebay for ridiculous amounts.
Last time I saw one the asking price was 500$.

Good luck chasing one down.

Thanks but that 5 bills will go towards the sp1200, I had the book in my amazon cart but then deleted it by accident as I was making room had too many things in there saved for later.

Horseclick wrote:

16pads wrote:The book is pretty much impossible to find these days.
They pop up occasionally on ebay for ridiculous amounts.
Last time I saw one the asking price was 500$.

Good luck chasing one down.

Thanks but that 5 bills will go towards the sp1200, I had the book in my amazon cart but then deleted it by accident as I was making room had too many things in there saved for later.

Well, if you were willing to pay 5 bills for that book I would say you were loco

Horse, where are you based ?