Legacy MPC Vs. Soft synths (or hardware vs. software)

Ive been on this board for a few years more as a reader than a poster. I had some experience with MPCs but nothing major. Most of my sequencing was done on a keyboard or a PC (Ive been doing music since th 80s). heck I even had an atari running an early version of cubase. Ive worked with tape, to adat, to DAWs. Heck I even remember working as a production assistant in Nashville when protools just came out. We all sat in amazement as it was evident from then it would change the game. I said that to say I have been around for a while.

I remember marley marl talking about he had to do everything on a 4 track and that limitations can be good. With all the advancements in technology, has music gotten better? I wont say its not but I will say music is different. It seems music is more manufactured then created. I feel its like an assembly line rather than being hand crafted. Which brings me to this debate I have fought over the years and finally figured out what was missing for me.

Sure, hardware is just a computer itself. But not everything on a computer plays together perfectly (even on a MAC). The latency has gotten better over the years, and sure you can get some incredible performaces out of a PC. But even the smallest amount of latency can throw timing off. Software is powerful and fast, but is it fast enough? I have to say not as fast as I need it to be. See if your doing trap music, you can get it right on a grid. When you want feel, its not as great. Even the slightest amount of latency can effect your groove. There is a reason why so many software companies try to emulate the MPC60 or 3000. But you cant do that in a box without spending some time programing. I have more to say, but curious as to what others think before I go on. I am simply saying that for me, and from a latency standpoint, making my beats in hardware is better.

dccarson wrote:It seems music is more manufactured then created. I feel its like an assembly line rather than being hand crafted.

agree with this. with so much easy access, it is just natural that with more total output comes more crap. a lot of the stuff you see on youtube / sc etc is a phrase i heard here once, 'hip-hop-by-numbers'.

get your soul sample, chop, add bass drum, add snare, add hihats, put on the 'producer' badge.

i don't mind it though, i just mind the ego that comes with it. a lot of cats are pretty humble, but a few think they have earned some cred cause they downloaded a couple drum hits and assigned them to pads.

its not just relegated to mpcs though, ableton has done the same thing. when ableton came out i remember thinking 'finally we can make music the way we have been wanting to' - meaning to do some of the stuff that is so easy to do with ableton, back then was actually pretty hard.
nowadays, its so easy to get the program, lock some stuff to a grid, and trigger clips.

i dont think the state of 'music' has changed (people are people), i think we just have a much wider and clearer lens with which to see it all through now. there are (very few) people doing really interesting and virtuosic stuff with pure software. the problem is thinking cause you have the tools you are in the club (consumerism is bigger nowadays, all these tools are sold much more aggressively).

again though i don't think its bad, but you can see the 'manufactured-ness' of it all. here's the diagram, now plug in your own pieces. i think the real musicians are often the guys with the real foresight programming and designing these things, and in a way all these paint-by-numbers kids come out singing a variation on the song the designer laid the ground work for.

tapedeck, I am going to have to borrow that "hip-hop by the numbers" because its on point. I am sure someone is going to come in hear and say software is all this and that and trust me, it is good stuff. Heck I love to use Ivory or Akousitc piano. My point being is that having too many options has seemed to stiffle us. Think about it. Almost 90% of pop, hip-hop and R and B have an 808 snare and clap in it. You dont have to do much programming for that. Its already done. And a side note but that kind of adds more fuel to my hardware vs. software debate. Its an emulation of the real thing. I grew up in the era where every saturday morning, we would go down to the town square and watch the commodores play live on a flat bed trailer. The feel and groove you got was incredible. Then, on Sunday morning we would be in Church listening to a choir and a band. Again, the feel and groove was off the chain. In the 80's, it was technology mixed with live musicians. same with early 90's. Again, not saying music today isnt good, just saying different.

I think you made a good point here and it has totally changed where I was going with this hardware vs. software debate. Software is more powerful that hardware (since most computers these days totally smoke). But is software based music giving us better music? can we say "the message" by GMF isnt as good as kendrick lamar "swimming pool" (which seems to be mainly software produced)?

And just so I can keep this thread in line with this area, I strongly feel that MPC3K and MPC2K are incredible instruments and very relevant today. I understand being able to chop a wave up in a PC and how easy that is. But you dont make music with your eyes, you make it with your ears. As anybody who has been chopping samples for years will tell you, if you use your eyes (and not your ears) to chop up a old soul loop, your music is go to sound sitff. There are ghost notes and reverb trails you will miss.

Haven't had this hardware vs software debate for a good minute, since it was played out too often. Lets see how this develops in 2013, despite the core arguments remaining fundamentally the same as ever. I think the thread title itself is enough to instill confusion and would be best focused on one comparison or the other, not both. Two different debates in one thread is a recipe for disaster in my experience.

well the cool thing with pc sequencers is.. high PPQN (480 or even 960 is standard) so if you have a good sound card that is set up properly on a half decent system... man you can get that latency buffer down enough so you get pretty good results. The great part is, you dont run out of polyphony or midi events etc.. on the 60, you sequence 2 pieces of hardware and sometimes notes start getting muted hahaha.. it's part of the charm but you know what I mean.

At the end of the day, it's the person with the creative mind.. right? You gotta make a cool sound, or find a cool chop.. etc. A good producer isn't good cause of the gear only. Most of these 808 beats aren't even done with real 808's where they could shape the drum synth different for each track... they got a folder with an 808 and 909 kit that they use every track and they dont dive into other drums. It's exactly hip hop by numbers. Hell they probably have a template for the DAW that automatically has that kit pre-loaded. I often wonder if avoiding copyright infringement is contributing to the stunt on artistic creativity.

And DJing is the same thing... I know a good 6 people who have started spinning the last year or two with computers and controllers running traktor or things like that... auto beat matching, auto locking to prevent a bad fade in.. every track on the hard drive is sorted by bpm.. which gets time stretched to automatically fit and then gets slowly stretched back to the right bpm while playing... or something like that. Often there is even an automix button so they wouldn't even need to be there.

However, you see who chooses to use that stuff... those people, you hear the music they make, or what they spin... you see them change styles according to what is popular.. you take ableton or traktor from in front of them and it's silence. They are stuck not able to do shit.

Clint I feel you on that. It is a broad topic. Thing is there are very few hardware boxes in production these days. Software is king of the hill at this time. I really like the looks of the MPC Ren and Studio seems solid as well. Ive played with Maschine as well as I own an MPD32 that I use to run Reasons or Battery. All are very capable of making music.

But this topic isnt so much about hard vs soft. Its also about quality music. Can anyone here say that with all of the technology that you personally have gotten better as a producer? Does the music you listen to that is created today make your jaw drop? I think this is where I am going more towards in this debate. Its not so much about functionality or workflow (which software wins again) as much as its about creativity. Its like the high school kids I come into contact with. Most of them can work a smartphone, xbox and are skilled with technology. But they know very little. We are in the information age but people arent becoming smarter. It seems they are becoming dependent. Same with music. We seem to make music faster, but not better. Dare I say its not as good. Yes, alot of that depends upon the person. However, being able to make 20-30 tracks a day is useless if non of them have soul. Its like what I hear sounds good to my ears. But its missing something.

I just think that the technology of software has made the artist lazy. PT actually adjusts a performers timing and pitch, which is good on one hand but lately artist are too much leaning on the engineer to make their lack of practice and training sound spotless. They just grab the mic and spit or play one take and PT buffs and shines their performance like the artist spent years to perfect. But put these guys in a room with just a mic and a 4 track tape recorder, and you'll see how much work they really need to be "artists". They will suck for real. A PT certified engineer is no means a producer, he just knows how to work the software and does what the client wants, he doesn't coach or gives advice. And thats what is needed, more headstrong producers with a firm hold on the craft to whip and work these lazy artists. Music sucks now because its not organic from the soul nor the concentrated power of the mind, its more mechanical and robotic.

Other than that, I dig a proper tool whether its hardware or software. Hardware seems to be where I'm at because I just turn it on and begin crafting. I don't like waiting to boot up, enter password, load up program and stare at a screen. I own a MV and I don't even connect the mouse and screen. I'm from an ancient era where the black arts once flourished, its gone now but as long I'm around, I will continue to bring it to yall live!!

i understand the crux of this discussion is supposed to be 'is music better', but that is a dangerous and fruitless road to walk down - 'better', 'worse', 'soul', 'robotic' - these are all words that mean different things to different people.

i also have total faith in the people and i realise that there is always talent somewhere in the heap.

but be careful with the 'back in my day' and 'todays its all crap' sentiment....might start to sound like disgruntled old folk

Ill, I feel ya all the way on the engineer being a producer. I used to hear the phrase "fix it in the mix" even when I worked with tape. The way most artist record now is to just sing the thing about 50 times, then they leave. The engineer later goes back to comp a vocal, auto tune it word for word and sometimes note for note. Heck we even add the vibrato to it. But I read an article how Ray Charles could go in and do the entire song start to finish in one take.

Thank God for the technology but beware. You can meet 1,000 women a day online now. Nevertheless, how many people are getting married or even staying together? Dont mean to sound like an old man here. Just saying we should use technology, not depend upon it. How many people post on sites like this everyday trying to get the same feel or groove Dr. Dre has? Of course we tell them it wasnt the MPC but him (which is true for the most part). However, instead of learning what they have, they keep buying the latest and greatest, never really learning the craft of production.

As far as soft vs hard, man software updates can make or break you. Having built almost all my computers, I can tell you it can sometimes be a mad house making all the codes play nice with each other. My system I have now has NEVER touched the internet. I will control the updates. I dont need to guess what the problem is. And guess what, In 2 years its never crashed. BUT, I dont trust it for 100% production. I want to know beyone a shadow of a dobut that at least my drums are tight. Because if the drums are off, everything else will be.

I hear you tape deck. its difficult to not sound like a "grumpy old man". But ask yourself this. Do you turn on the radio and get chill bumps? a lot of kids I know like music from the 90s and early 2K. They say the rap is okay but R&B isnt as good.

tapedeck wrote:i understand the crux of this discussion is supposed to be 'is music better', but that is a dangerous and fruitless road to walk down - 'better', 'worse', 'soul', 'robotic' - these are all words that mean different things to different people.

i also have total faith in the people and i realise that there is always talent somewhere in the heap.

but be careful with the 'back in my day' and 'todays its all crap' sentiment....might start to sound like disgruntled old folk

I am a disgruntled old folk.

good music is still being made... somewhere in the world.. it's just harder to find it when you gotta wade through all the shit.

Today when I hear a great beat.. it catches me more off guard kind of like it was more unexpected or something.. where as, back in the 90's or 2000's it was almost expected.

dccarson wrote:I hear you tape deck. its difficult to not sound like a "grumpy old man". But ask yourself this. Do you turn on the radio and get chill bumps? a lot of kids I know like music from the 90s and early 2K. They say the rap is okay but R&B isnt as good.

when i turn on the radio i hear classic country or whatever the community station plays (i highly encourage everyone here to seek out their community station and get involved - get on air!).

i've just learned to ignore the force-feeders - so i'm probably the wrong guy to ask ;]

and if i cringe at it, its not the sound so much, i can respect changing styles, its more the marketing behind it, veiled in artistry.

As anybody who has been chopping samples for years will tell you, if you use your eyes (and not your ears) to chop up a old soul loop, your music is go to sound sitff.

as someone who has been chopping samples or 10 years, i disagree. when people "Chop with their eyes" they are not plugging their ears. using a visual waveform representation is just extra feedback to slice. you can always see ghost notes etc in a waveform esp after years of doing so.