Legacy MPC Vs. Soft synths (or hardware vs. software)

i like hardware for the feel , or own groove type thing.. But i use a combination... When i was all software (totally itb) i'd find myself more sound designing than actually creating any music/songs..

It's my gripe with maschine.. When they added vst support it added to many possibilites for sound shaping...

now i find i make more songs by tracking in hardware instruments into the daw. So i just use the daw as a multi track recorder... No midi.. Just audio tracking.. New swings and grooves for each beat i make.. I use the mpc1000 and 5k like a guitar or bass.. it's a instrument that you must learn to play... Much more fun and i get way more done.. I also use reaper.. becauase of its customisation.. To make your own editing macros or actions with one key press. once you set it up to the way you like it's the quickest daw(in terms of the number of physical things you need to click/press to accomplish tasks) on the market imo....And that let's me spend more time playing instruments....

Nym wrote:

As anybody who has been chopping samples for years will tell you, if you use your eyes (and not your ears) to chop up a old soul loop, your music is go to sound sitff.

as someone who has been chopping samples or 10 years, i disagree. when people "Chop with their eyes" they are not plugging their ears. using a visual waveform representation is just extra feedback to slice. you can always see ghost notes etc in a waveform esp after years of doing so.

For the past few weeks I've been doing a lot of chopping by ear on the S950 and S1000.

My take on 'ears over eye's' is that when I am chopping transients with my ears I don't care when I sometimes might actually carve into the transient or whatever.
When the chop sounds correct to my ears it IS correct for me and I run with it.
I currently like the way that my tracks come out when using this method.

Chopping to a waveform kinda makes me want to chop precisely where the transient is on the readout. I guess in hindsight I could just close my eye's whilst I do it, lol.

It's good that individuals use different method's & techniques. I use all the method's and technique's I can.

Yesterday I received an MPC3000 so I'll be doing a lot more chopping by ear. It's sequencer and sound have blown me away. All mpc's are certainly not equal!!

jimmie wrote:All mpc's are certainly not equal!!

Definitely not.

It's a shame you can't get everything in one package... sound, build quality, timing, tons of features, standalone, ADAT out, pad sensitivity, ease of use, big screen etc.

Coz wrote:

jimmie wrote:All mpc's are certainly not equal!!

Definitely not.

It's a shame you can't get everything in one package... sound, build quality, timing, tons of features, standalone, ADAT out, pad sensitivity, ease of use, big screen etc.

Yes. It's the repeated 'free-market' tragedy when company's switch to selling mediocre items instead of keeping their quality in order to make more profits. Sometimes the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many. Popular may equal profit but it does not equal quality.

I posted this in another post but I will say it here too. Also should do exactly what protocols did. Make a top if the line pro version and a regular one. I would easily pay 3k and up for an upgraded mpc3k that's stand alone and can run via a computer. But I think thru settle for the lowest denominator theses days. Most young producers today want a walmart beat box. I got more to.say here and will post more soon.

Nym wrote:

As anybody who has been chopping samples for years will tell you, if you use your eyes (and not your ears) to chop up a old soul loop, your music is go to sound sitff.

as someone who has been chopping samples or 10 years, i disagree. when people "Chop with their eyes" they are not plugging their ears. using a visual waveform representation is just extra feedback to slice. you can always see ghost notes etc in a waveform esp after years of doing so.

Yeah there's no extra "magic" or "hip hoppy looseness" lost by looking at a waveform. You have every chance to not cut it right on the transient and preserve how ever much extra attack you want on the front end of the chop. (And of of course the same on the decay/back end of the chop) My eyes are hardly a detriment to my ears. They work together pretty well usually.

"keep firing, assholes!"

So thinking more in this topic, I went to GC and just hung out talking to a few young cats who do music. The common thread I notice is that most don't understand music. They've never played an instrument nor can they pick out a trumpet from a trombone. They've only listened to hip-hop and a little r and b. so they haven't been exposed to different kind of music like jazz, rock or the blues.

What does this have to do with this topic? Well we talk about the classic mpc's and the producers that use them. True they have lots of processors and top notch engineers. But they also had live instruments playing which adds even more feel to a song. Listen to nwa's straight outta Compton and you'll hear lots of guitar and bass. Heck the samples we use are live instruments. And when programming drums, sometimes you have to play it and turn off quantize. Producers these days expect the software to give it feel and it will only go so far. Producing takes time and is a craft. What we use are the tools but it seems we expect the tools to build the songs. They won't. I do change my thoughts a little on using software. It can make life easier and I love kontakt 4. But software cannot replace skill. You must work your craft. No doubt about it hardware forces you to do that more so than software. Just my thoughts.

Metatron72 wrote:My eyes are hardly a detriment to my ears. They work together pretty well usually.

I'm saying, when I use just my ears to chop I make different decisions and I like those decisions. It's a personal thing. I enjoy it. You may not get good results when using just your ears.

Like I said, I'm not tied-in to using only one method; I use my eyes and ears as well.

My point is I'll get the same result either way. But yeah, some cats cut everything too sharp and lose the swing from the original loop or don't know how to break up loops and retain the groove without time stretch, old school style. And some folks are worse off with modern time stretch.

Like you said you have a variety of methods to choose. I think a lot of us can get the funk out whichever way. But certainly some brand new cats are gonna rely on modern conveniences too hard and their beats will suffer. But put a guy who knows the old techniques of the early SP/MPC days and no one will know if it was software, hardware or whatever.

Just like the difference between commanding your tools as opposed to your tools dictating to you. You strike me as the first thing. So I just mean using the visual aspect to just work faster, not dictate how you do it.

There is a saying that goes with constuction, "measure twice, cut once." I take a look at the waveform as a unit a measurement. But I listen with my ears more than anything. Once I think I have it, I look back at the waveform just to verify. All in all, I think we are saying the same thing. What most new producers do is let auto chop do the work. They think that everything is perfectly on beat. We all know that isnt the case on older songs played by live musicians. I use auto chop but ONLY as a starting point. But I am faster just dropping the cuts in and moving the start/stop times around.

Making a beat is one thing. Producing it takes time. YOU have to massage the track to get the right feel and that takes time. There is a reason why you had a gang of people working on Michael Jacksons album. If you think you can just sit down and make a beat in 10 minutes, chances are its going to sound that way. Producing is a skill. One thing about hardware is that you never have to guess about latency. That small millisecond can make a difference. Sometimes when your computer updates, (O.S, software, etc), it can change things. Weve all experienced that. There are ALWAYS things going on in a computer unless you turn them off. My PC I built has NEVER touched the internet. It has no virus protection or anything like that. Its optimized for music. Basically I made it more like hardware (thought I use sofware). It only changes or updates if I let it so I can keep things consistent. Thats what hardware gives you is consistency and when money is on the line, that's important.

Yeah in the XP days I could take a non internet terminal down to using 35MB of RAM at boot up to have the majority of the available 2GB.

Thankfully today's multicore boxes and MOBOS that can in theory slot 96GB of RAM, well let's just say my terminals go on the web these days with nothing more than the free MS Security essentials. Intelligent surfing habits and it's no issue.

In 3 years I've not had a single Windows update cause one issue. And on my OS X side of things only the ones like Lion and Mountain Lion cause issues. But Apple breaks compatibilities seemingly just for fun at times. I exaggerate a bit, but they change too much each major release and they give devs like 60-90 days to get compliant, and in some cases stuff just will never work again.

But it takes a powerful computer and you have to know what you're doing to maintain a system that runs like the day you clean installed all apps. (Thankfully I'm that nerd. ) But it's been great last few years to not have to sacrifice so much to have a solid DAW computer.

I really admire the MPC hardware line. I consider it to be an "art machine". Everytime I see a legacy MPC I know i'm about to hear something unique, original, and different.


I can't wait until I can afford an MPC1000 just for the hands-on feel of trimming my chops manually. Ironically most software can't even do this. I've been chopping samples in Recycle for a while now, and its not fun at all..it's more like a job no matter how quick it is.

dccarson wrote:Ive been on this board for a few years more as a reader than a poster. I had some experience with MPCs but nothing major. Most of my sequencing was done on a keyboard or a PC (Ive been doing music since th 80s). heck I even had an atari running an early version of cubase. Ive worked with tape, to adat, to DAWs. Heck I even remember working as a production assistant in Nashville when protools just came out. We all sat in amazement as it was evident from then it would change the game. I said that to say I have been around for a while.

I remember marley marl talking about he had to do everything on a 4 track and that limitations can be good. With all the advancements in technology, has music gotten better? I wont say its not but I will say music is different. It seems music is more manufactured then created. I feel its like an assembly line rather than being hand crafted. Which brings me to this debate I have fought over the years and finally figured out what was missing for me.

Sure, hardware is just a computer itself. But not everything on a computer plays together perfectly (even on a MAC). The latency has gotten better over the years, and sure you can get some incredible performaces out of a PC. But even the smallest amount of latency can throw timing off. Software is powerful and fast, but is it fast enough? I have to say not as fast as I need it to be. See if your doing trap music, you can get it right on a grid. When you want feel, its not as great. Even the slightest amount of latency can effect your groove. There is a reason why so many software companies try to emulate the MPC60 or 3000. But you cant do that in a box without spending some time programing. I have more to say, but curious as to what others think before I go on. I am simply saying that for me, and from a latency standpoint, making my beats in hardware is better.

Say I hears some samples and get an idea for a track. The samples are in different keys and will need time stretching to fit. I'm going to, say, throw some live bass playing over the top, play in some drums via pads, then mix and master.

The fastest, simplest way to do that, for me, would be to use my MPD32, Geist, and Logic. No doubt about it. Software is less hassle, it's quicker... throw it on Soundcloud... blah.

BUT all-in-the-box DAW music can kind of sound sterile and the "same as the next guy's". I can't really say why that is but if I hear some good hip-hop or electronic stuff I usually find later that there's hardware involved. I think it might be that because hardware is a little slower and awkward to work with at times, producers concentrate on fewer, better ideas instead of just noodling about with the zillion FX any modern DAW and set of plugins gives you until it sounds 'cool'.

Now, I don't know about latency. I have my setup fast and vanilla and I think I can can get a perfect enough groove in Geist and an MPD. But for the last 18 months or so I've been getting most tracks started on my MPC2500, only really using software when all I had was my laptop with me. Partly that's because we moved house into a place that needs work so I haven't got my music corner set up yet and stuff's still in boxes but mostly it's because there's a sort of simple pleasure in using the hardware MPC. It's like driving a car - I think about where I'm going not how I'm going to change gear or find he brake pedal.

If you like a music making tool you'll make more music on it - doesn't matter what's current, cool, what artist X uses, or what costs the most $$$$. I had a really expensive Gibson ES335 custom shop guitar and while it was gorgeous it didn't inspire me to play as much as a beat-up frankenstein Telecaster with no real resale value. I've spoken to other people that said buying a high end instrument inspired them to 'do it justice'. What inspires you personally is completely unique.

There are things that it's much easier to do on a DAW and some things that can't be done on the MPC but in a way that just makes you concentrate on the beat and the groove (and not thousands of options), which is the only thing your audience (whether they are 100 people on SoundCloud, 200 at a show or millions around the world buying your platinum record) really give a shit about.