Pads(PGM) to midi & Controller mode vote

chopchop wrote:Thats the option you want to be able to use one program at a time and be able to seq that in your daw its very basic and what you want from a plugin I cant understand why you think this is not normal and every plugin that i know of that has a sequencer allows you to sequence it either both inside the plugin and the daw the choice is yours

I dont know where you get hot mess from if i seq my PGM from inside my daw as it is now it plays perfect no problem at all but the problem is i have to draw that sequence in and cant jam it from the pads

maschine gets around the fact that you render the actual plugin to that one pgm program by letting you load up more than one plugin at a time

Maybe you don't understand what I am trying to say. So try this:
1. Create an Instrument Track in your DAW and insert the MPC VST

2. Within the MPC VST, load a Drum, Piano, and Bass program and assign them to Tracks 1-3 respectively

3. In the DAW Instrument Track that hosts the MPC VST, draw in MIDI notes with your mouse

4. Press Pllay Start on your DAW

5. While your DAW is playing, change the Ren's tracks.

What happens is that every time you change the Ren's tracks, the DAW's instrument track will play the currently selected Track in the Ren. This equals 'hot mess' as you don't want the drum pattern you just recorded into your DAW to now trigger a piano patch. There is no good reason to want this unless you are simply using the Ren as a sound module for 1 instrument...and you won't be using the other 127 tracks.

The Ren plugin is not like a standard plugin instrument. You can't place it on multiple tracks; it only allows once instance. You can't load several programs inside the Ren, assign them to different MIDI channels, and then have multiple MIDI tracks in your DAW sequence these programs; this is how many standard plugins work such as Kontakt, Mach Five, etc.

Again....my issue is not that you shouldn't be able to record on the DAW Track that hosts the MPC plugin using the Pads. What I am saying is that if you did record on that Track then it makes the other 127 tracks in the Ren useless...or a headache to use. What makes more sense is to use an Audio Track within the DAW. So when you are jamming on the Ren's pads with your other Live Tracks, your drum pattern is recorded as audio instead of MIDI. Now if you could load the Ren on multiple tracks, then what you are requesting makes sense.

Additionally, Pads to MIDI note and Controller Mode as implemented in Maschine is not standard. A 'standard' would mean there are several products on the market that do the same thing and a base for such features have been established.

Airyck wrote:MIDI mode would allow the MPC Ren hardware to control other software and in a way that is configurable and user assignable.... if you need to ask why.... well either you're new or maybe you should move on to something else, knitting?... Water Polo?

One can easily flip that around and say...."if you don't like the way the Ren performs, you should move on to something else....like what ever you were doing before Aug 2012...." But I won't say that as it is unnecessary just like your comment.

Jah there is no need to confuse the issue

Someone performing this wouldn't be doing what you suggest once we perform this act you would know that your dealing with one PGM/kit so you wouldn't be changing them unless you was changing kits

So like I said no need to confuse the issue this is a basic need for making music with a good work flow as I said maschine let's you load up mulitiple versions of its vst which I guess you wouldn't normally do unless your doing something like this or combining the options

It's not like we are asking for something that would be good to exist it already does as a standard practice for all Plugins with a sequencer

Why would anyone that makes music for a living want a more fractured work flow why would you want less options when your would obviously want more


You claim to understand its use then come with these arguments which are why you wouldn't want it it why would you use it like I said without any disrespect intended if you actually made music you would fully understand

And that is my reason for nominating actual producers for beta testing as they know exactly what things are useful and what they are needed for even if they don't use them it seems like this is completely going over your head



Just to make clear it's a feature needed for speed of work flow and ease of use and one using it knows it's limitations but the fact they are using it means they don't require the other options for this task hence the flexibility to switch modes




And PGM to midi is born

chopchop wrote:some people might want to use the ren seq so the option to switch settings is flexibility for all

I voted Yes, and switching between the two modes will be an Ideal way and let everybody Glad !

We really need the both things. Actual plugin mode for post-mixing Standalone sequenced Tracks in a DAW and a real controller Mode to control a DAW with the plugin, with the REN sequencer disabled, just like a PAD + Rotative Knobs + Transports controller. But Indeed with a Sampling part acting like the plugin Battery as an Exemple.

Actually and since v1.31, I gave up playing with the DAW´s and the plugin´s settings. I just track my beats In standalone then export Wave files to mix the stems later. Then, I don´t use the plugin at all.

JAH wrote:The Ren plugin is not like a standard plugin instrument. You can't place it on multiple tracks; it only allows once instance. You can't load several programs inside the Ren, assign them to different MIDI channels, and then have multiple MIDI tracks in your DAW sequence these programs; this is how many standard plugins work such as Kontakt, Mach Five, etc.

You pointed something should be realised by AKAI. Initially I bought the REN thinking it does ^^ as Midi Control. But I´m now in a different workflow, not bad, less clicks, more fun.

chopchop wrote:Jah there is no need to confuse the issue

Someone performing this wouldn't be doing what you suggest once we perform this act you would know that your dealing with one PGM/kit so you wouldn't be changing them unless you was changing kits

So like I said no need to confuse the issue this is a basic need for making music with a good work flow as I said maschine let's you load up mulitiple versions of its vst which I guess you wouldn't normally do unless your doing something like this or combining the options

It's not like we are asking for something that would be good to exist it already does as a standard practice for all Plugins with a sequencer

Why would anyone that makes music for a living want a more fractured work flow why would you want less options when your would obviously want more


You claim to understand its use then come with these arguments which are why you wouldn't want it it why would you use it like I said without any disrespect intended if you actually made music you would fully understand

And that is my reason for nominating actual producers for beta testing as they know exactly what things are useful and what they are needed for even if they don't use them it seems like this is completely going over your head



Just to make clear it's a feature needed for speed of work flow and ease of use and one using it knows it's limitations but the fact they are using it means they don't require the other options for this task hence the flexibility to switch modes




And PGM to midi is born

I do get the concept. I'm just critiquing the stated application of the concept.

You keep mentioning plugins with sequencers perform this way. But the Ren is obviously more of a sequencer than it is a plugin. And besides in addition to the Ren/Studio, there are Maschine, Spark, and Live (w/ APC or Push) as the only products I can think of that are similar in concept but still virtually new in the market place. So a standard hasn't really been set...nor does it mean any particular manufacturer should follow what is perceived as the 'standard'.

True. Maschine let's you load up multiple versions in a DAW. But trying to tell the hardware which version instance of Maschine to control doesn't look user friendly. At least I can't figure it out. Regardless...what you suggest is turning the Ren into an MPD and rendering the software pretty much nonfunctional. You completely ignore the fact that you can do almost exactly what you want wit the Ren now but instead of using an Instrument Track, you would use an audio track.

What you describe sounds like an MPD and Battery would be a better solution (although you stated earlier on you want to eliminate another controller). Even a hardware MPC and Live would be a better solution. I can't see a good reason for someone to perform live by using Maschine (or the Ren) as a plugin within another sequencer. That looks like a fracture and unnecessary workflow. These products are better suited to be used alone. I have watched a lot of videos of users and these products. And I have yet to see someone trying to use it live in this fashion. I would be curious to see that workflow though.

...as far as nominating producers to beta test...Akai has consulted with many producers that make a living off of music. They received plenty of feedback. And I am sure some alpha/beta tested the product. If this was a 'basic', 'essential', 'must have 'standard' feature....The fact that Akai publicly stated they would not being doing this particular function says volumes about the type of feedback they were receiving.

And just because I have a different outlook as you doesn't mean I don't create music as you do...doesn't mean things are flying over my head, or any other side ways talk you are coming at me with. These types of remarks come from individuals that have no other arguments left for their stated position. And that is confusing the issue.


To wrap this up, there is no need to get upset. I am just saying your concept as stated needs some rethinking IMO. If it was done in conjunction with: allowing multiple instances of the Ren running as a VST, multitimbral mode to allow it to be used as a sound module

comtox wrote:

JAH wrote:The Ren plugin is not like a standard plugin instrument. You can't place it on multiple tracks; it only allows once instance. You can't load several programs inside the Ren, assign them to different MIDI channels, and then have multiple MIDI tracks in your DAW sequence these programs; this is how many standard plugins work such as Kontakt, Mach Five, etc.

You pointed something should be realised by AKAI. Initially I bought the REN thinking it does ^^ as Midi Control. But I´m now in a different workflow, not bad, less clicks, more fun.

The concept of the Ren is credited to Glen Darcey, Peter Thom, Dan Gill, and Alex Souppa. I am sure there are numerous directions that could have taken this product. But as Dan have said in numerous interviews is they designed the Ren as bringing the MPC workflow to the lap top. While the plugin capability may evolve, I think the standalone application should certainly have a priority which it appears it has based upon all the updates.

Im astounded that you cant see the practicality of it and think its some non use you can't be making music mixing and finishing songs with this opinion and the suggestion of buying an mpd and using battery when I clearly put using the pgm from the mpc why would it make more sense to go and buy an mpd on top of buying the mpc and why would it make more sense to use a hardware mpc when this is a software mpc and bar a simple setting which its half doing at the moment

(You completely ignore the fact that you can do almost exactly what you want wit the Ren now but instead of using an Instrument Track)

you completely ignore the fact you cant draw midi in an audio track and completely ignore how important being able to edit your seq in your daw using midi and being able to use your device machine,mic,spark to record these things in you completely ignore the fact that is what people want from a plugin sequencing inside a plugin is the biggest drag you could ask for and ANTI work flow


you dont have to tell maschine soft to control your track arm button does that for you and thats the track you will be controlling pretty simple and straight forward

Dont get it slightly twisted in the field that akai and mpc have now entered NI and Maschine have set the bar and standards and its up to Akai to meet them head on and not lack anything a direct competitor has and is able to do


The fact that Akai publicly stated they would not being doing this particular function says volumes about the type of feedback they were receiving. where do they mention not implementing Pads to midi

Its not my concept its a feature producer who make music have been using for years you must not make music Im baffled how you think this is not important

when your direct competition has it why would you lack anything they have that is very usefull and needed and a direct aid to your workflow



Once I've tracked out all my music from my 1000 that I sold these features or the lack of them will deffo make me consider my options as I wont buy and mpd on top of the Ren


If you call the way something might look un user friendly then you must understand the way the mpc plugin actually performs is not user friendly and simple pad to midi makes a GIGANTIC difference



What akai need to do is listen to its users and we are those people if your our voice then help us get basic work flow features look at the votes dont they tell you that actual producers would like this feature

JAH wrote:

comtox wrote:

JAH wrote:The Ren plugin is not like a standard plugin instrument. You can't place it on multiple tracks; it only allows once instance. You can't load several programs inside the Ren, assign them to different MIDI channels, and then have multiple MIDI tracks in your DAW sequence these programs; this is how many standard plugins work such as Kontakt, Mach Five, etc.

You pointed something should be realised by AKAI. Initially I bought the REN thinking it does ^^ as Midi Control. But I´m now in a different workflow, not bad, less clicks, more fun.

The concept of the Ren is credited to Glen Darcey, Peter Thom, Dan Gill, and Alex Souppa. I am sure there are numerous directions that could have taken this product. But as Dan have said in numerous interviews is they designed the Ren as bringing the MPC workflow to the lap top. While the plugin capability may evolve, I think the standalone application should certainly have a priority which it appears it has based upon all the updates.

Its not multi outputs from 30 pgm and plugins ....its the simple translation of one pgm to midi notes

For instance not being able to use multi instances of the vst is not a deal breaker once you done with your track you could freeze flatten it like most daws do today and load up another mpc it would still give more flexibility and make the plugin more useful


If you want to automate other plugins in your daw as you normally do but still want to use your mpc drum pgm or sample then the comes into effect only the lack of pads to midi seriously hampers work flow for the plugin and make it useless to me and many others who dont want to seq inside something when its all externally infront of you

JAH wrote:what you suggest is turning the Ren into an MPD and rendering the software pretty much nonfunctional. You completely ignore the fact that you can do almost exactly what you want wit the Ren now but instead of using an Instrument Track, you would use an audio track.

What you describe sounds like an MPD and Battery would be a better solution (although you stated earlier on you want to eliminate another controller). Even a hardware MPC and Live would be a better solution. I can't see a good reason for someone to perform live by using Maschine (or the Ren) as a plugin within another sequencer. That looks like a fracture and unnecessary workflow. These products are better suited to be used alone.

It is bizarre that you can't use the MPC as a MPD, if you want to.

You have a large MIDI controller hooked up to your computer, with all the features of an MPD, using it to control a single plugin within a DAW, but you can't use it like an MPD to control other software/hardware MIDI instruments from within the DAW?

It is pretty stupid to suggest that you should have to use an MPD as well, with all the controls duplicated, just to get the functionality that should already be in the MPC.

It is designed to control the MPC plugin within a DAW, it should also be able to control other plugins within that DAW, without needing another MIDI controller that duplicates the same controls that the MPC already has.

JAH wrote:While the plugin capability may evolve, I think the standalone application should certainly have a priority which it appears it has based upon all the updates.

Hopefully those standalone updates will include Rewire support, not being able to Rewire audio/MIDI back and forth from the standalone application to a DAW is another glaring omission.

SimonInAustralia wrote:

JAH wrote:what you suggest is turning the Ren into an MPD and rendering the software pretty much nonfunctional. You completely ignore the fact that you can do almost exactly what you want wit the Ren now but instead of using an Instrument Track, you would use an audio track.

What you describe sounds like an MPD and Battery would be a better solution (although you stated earlier on you want to eliminate another controller). Even a hardware MPC and Live would be a better solution. I can't see a good reason for someone to perform live by using Maschine (or the Ren) as a plugin within another sequencer. That looks like a fracture and unnecessary workflow. These products are better suited to be used alone.

It is bizarre that you can't use the MPC as a MPD, if you want to.

You have a large MIDI controller hooked up to your computer, with all the features of an MPD, using it to control a single plugin within a DAW, but you can't use it like an MPD to control other software/hardware MIDI instruments from within the DAW?

It is pretty stupid to suggest that you should have to use an MPD as well, with all the controls duplicated, just to get the functionality that should already be in the MPC.

It is designed to control the MPC plugin within a DAW, it should also be able to control other plugins within that DAW, without needing another MIDI controller that duplicates the same controls that the MPC already has.

JAH wrote:While the plugin capability may evolve, I think the standalone application should certainly have a priority which it appears it has based upon all the updates.

Hopefully those standalone updates will include Rewire support, not being able to Rewire audio/MIDI back and forth from the standalone application to a DAW is another glaring omission.

chopchop wrote:Im astounded that you cant see the practicality of it and think its some non use you can't be making music mixing and finishing songs with this opinion and the suggestion of buying an mpd and using battery when I clearly put using the pgm from the mpc why would it make more sense to go and buy an mpd on top of buying the mpc and why would it make more sense to use a hardware mpc when this is a software mpc and bar a simple setting which its half doing at the moment

(You completely ignore the fact that you can do almost exactly what you want wit the Ren now but instead of using an Instrument Track)

So if you are a Ren user, how are you making music mixing and finishing songs since the Ren obviously lacks this function? So basically everyone that owns a Ren is not making music according to you.

You can't use the Ren in the manner suggested unless you use an audio track. And as I pointed out several times, you can record note events in the Instrument Track that the Ren is hosted in using another controller or a mouse. But as soon as you do so, you just rendered the Ren ineffective for creating music. Try what I am saying. If I get time, I will record a video and show you this is an ineffective way to work using the Ren. You keep missing the point that your suggestion alone would probably not work.

chopchop wrote:you completely ignore the fact you cant draw midi in an audio track and completely ignore how important being able to edit your seq in your daw using midi and being able to use your device machine,mic,spark to record these things in you completely ignore the fact that is what people want from a plugin sequencing inside a plugin is the biggest drag you could ask for and ANTI work flow

Who said anything about drawing MIDI in an audio track. We are talking about recording. I simply gave you a method to record your Ren into your DAW using audio...that you can edit, quantize, etc audio as if it were MIDI with the leading DAWs today.

chopchop wrote:you dont have to tell maschine soft to control your track arm button does that for you and thats the track you will be controlling pretty simple and straight forward

Dont get it slightly twisted in the field that akai and mpc have now entered NI and Maschine have set the bar and standards and its up to Akai to meet them head on and not lack anything a direct competitor has and is able to do

I disagree 100%. I would be using Maschine if it was the benchmark or standard.

chopchop wrote:Its not my concept its a feature producer who make music have been using for years you must not make music Im baffled how you think this is not important

I guess all the producers Akai consulted with do not make music because it lacks a MIDI Mode. Do you know how ridiculous this sounds?

chopchop wrote:when your direct competition has it why would you lack anything they have that is very usefull and needed and a direct aid to your workflow

NI has had 1 year to look at what Akai is doing. You don't see them releasing several updates to include all the features the Ren has that it is missing. So is true for Akai. If you look at the 3 previous updates plus the current one, you will find most features and improvements have nothing to do with doing what Maschine does.

chopchop wrote:What akai need to do is listen to its users and we are those people if your our voice then help us get basic work flow features look at the votes dont they tell you that actual producers would like this feature

Actually....the results just shows that forum members read this thread, thought it may be a good idea, and anonymously voted. There are hundreds of threads like these. I already said in multiple times that triggering MIDI from the pads is a nice idea. I just think the implementation as suggested doesn't make sense.

... we have been doing this for a few days now. So I am ending on that note. I was only bumping this to have dialog with other forum members to make a compelling argument for this but no one has really replied. I will fall back so maybe some others will stop by and give their point of view.

.

SimonInAustralia wrote:It is designed to control the MPC plugin within a DAW, it should also be able to control other plugins within that DAW, without needing another MIDI controller that duplicates the same controls that the MPC already has.

I can show you how to do this....as I actually do use the Ren not just talk about what it can't do as you see in the majority of threads here.

JAH wrote:

SimonInAustralia wrote:It is designed to control the MPC plugin within a DAW, it should also be able to control other plugins within that DAW, without needing another MIDI controller that duplicates the same controls that the MPC already has.

I can show you how to do this....as I actually do use the Ren not just talk about what it can't do as you see in the majority of threads here.

Can you show me how to do it with Logic? I can't find an instruction anywhere...

In no way am I saying or do I say at any point that you cant make music with the Ren show me the part where I say this nore do I insinuate people can't make music with it

What I did say was If YOU made music you would fully understand its like talking to a brick in this case you in no way understand what the use of this is and why you want it

fact that the user knows what hes doing with it and how it works its an option we like to have when using a plugin if you cant understand that I will quit trying to explain because it seems like Im getting nowhere in explaining to you

Where do I say the producers akai consulted dont make music because of pad to midi Im talking about you not understanding its you so why make that into me saying the producers akai consulted don't actually make music do you know how stupid this looks to make out this when its clear in print that I said YOU must not make mix and finish music production if you cant understand its use

are you saying the way its implemented in maschine is stupid or makes no sense because all im saying is it should work in the same way or give us the same feature becasue its use speeds up the process of what your trying to do and makes it as visual as everything else

the simple task of recording PGM/samples into the daw or the mpc plugin should be the choice of the user

lastly I must rephrase myself because Akai do listen and Im not saying they don't they have brought many features we have asked for this is just a feature I think the plugin is badly missing and would speed the way it works and make it much more useful even without controller mode

ill try get a better video so you can better understand its use

as you say rendering the mpc to one pgm or 1 track well thats exactly what your wanting to do on that specific job once you have recorded out your midi you can either flatten it or freeze and drag the audio if you still want to use the plugin for other things to get round the fact it cant load more than one at the moment but if they allowed more than one that wouldnt be a problem

If you could set the pgm to different midi channels in your daw then you could get round needing more than one vst but even as it stands the simple feature to turn on or off pads to midi note so the pads recorded what you jam on them directly into the daw track would be a big use and save time / work flow

acura wrote:

JAH wrote:

SimonInAustralia wrote:It is designed to control the MPC plugin within a DAW, it should also be able to control other plugins within that DAW, without needing another MIDI controller that duplicates the same controls that the MPC already has.

I can show you how to do this....as I actually do use the Ren not just talk about what it can't do as you see in the majority of threads here.

Can you show me how to do it with Logic? I can't find an instruction anywhere...

Logic drives me nuts so I will be of no use. I just posted how you can do it in Pro Tools (which I use daily to actually create music and not just talk about it). The video may help you.