Audio track

Audiotracks: NO
Rewire Master: YES ie. Rewire Tracks to Pro Tools including sample accurate sync.
Midi Sync internal: YES

SimonInAustralia wrote:

labcoats wrote:As soon as they add audio tracks (which I think they will) the floodgates of persistent Daw features requests will open and this product will never reach what it could have been becasue the company will get sidetracked from the Rens main purpose - mark my words.

i know what its like starting with a Daw at version 1. Never again will I put my self through that ****.

From the Akai product page, one of the MPC Software features is to be "your main DAW", whether you like it or not, one of the Ren's main purposes is to be a DAW...

MPC Software

Works alone as your main DAW or works seamlessly with your current studio as a VST, RTAS, or AU plugin

They have always advertised it as being a DAW. I could list possibly a hundred reasons why its not. But lets not go down a 30 page essay...

How can you have a main DAW without being able to record audio tracks?

Advertising it as a Daw doesn't make it one. I could possibly list a hundred reasons why its not, but lets avoid the massive essay.

As I have stated multiple times im NOT AGAINST audio tracks. I'm saying that as soon as their implemented the floodgates of demands will open for every single Daw feature that exists to be implemented in to the Ren. Check the feature request section. I must have audio pitching like Melodyne!. I demand that new midi to audio feature Ableton Live just implemented etc. Improving the core functionality of the MPC will be forgotten.

Ren is a daw! - Except its not:
Sequences being directly attached to the mixer is a perfect example of how the Ren can never compete in the daw arena. It would be the same as Pro Tools mixer being attached directly to regions. Make any mixer/plugin adjustments and manually repeat the process for every single region you have. Yet this is how sequences work. There isnt a producer in the world who would choose to mix records like that. The Ren can never be a Daw with such backward mixing functionality.

The development of the Ren will be decided by the marketing department, not by what it needs. Dangling a carrot in front of users (particularly potential users) is where the focus will be. Im merely protesting. I know there is nothing I can do about it.

e9000k wrote:Audiotracks: NO
Rewire Master: YES ie. Rewire Tracks to Pro Tools including sample accurate sync.
Midi Sync internal: YES

I would have preferred Rewire to.

labcoats wrote:Advertising it as a Daw doesn't make it one. I could possibly list a hundred reasons why its not, but lets avoid the massive essay.

...

The development of the Ren will be decided by the marketing department, not by what it needs. Dangling a carrot in front of users (particularly potential users) is where the focus will be.

I'm not claiming it is a DAW, just pointing out that is the way it has been marketed from the start, and as you say, that will drive development.

I can't see how they can claim it is a DAW without audio tracks, they have to be a planned feature, I don't think you will be able to avoid them.

Yes I agree.
Undoubtedly they will be implemented and the floodgate of Daw feature requests will turn in to a tsunami drowning out real and useful feature requests (this has already happened). Akai know this, and their marketing department will play along knowing full well the Ren will never be a Daw. Pseudo daw yes.

i'm not against the idea of audio but there's a hell of a lot of other stuff that needs
seeing to first. get the stuff requested from legacy mpcs right, make that a solid foundation and work from there.

labcoats wrote:Yes I agree.
Undoubtedly they will be implemented and the floodgate of Daw feature requests will turn in to a tsunami drowning out real and useful feature requests (this has already happened). Akai know this, and their marketing department will play along knowing full well the Ren will never be a Daw. Pseudo daw yes.

Yes, they should just make Song mode with basic DAW features and case close.

Danny wrote:i'm not against the idea of audio but there's a hell of a lot of other stuff that needs
seeing to first. get the stuff requested from legacy mpcs right, make that a solid foundation and work from there.

Agree. Even though audio tracks was promised before launch.

labcoats wrote:Sequences being directly attached to the mixer is a perfect example of how the Ren can never compete in the daw arena. It would be the same as Pro Tools mixer being attached directly to regions.

labcoats wrote:get the stuff requested from legacy mpcs right, make that a solid foundation and work from there.

Danny wrote:Yes, they should just make Song mode with basic DAW features and case close.

Maybe the solution but..

...I really think people need to learn routing audio directly from the plugin in their DAWs... So they could record anything on their songs, editing their songs in the plugin , side-chaining, Automate effects, mixing, mastering , etc... It's my DIY enthusiast words.

I've done a beat for some friends who have sung on a B-Side, they gave me the lead acapella and the backings, I directly composed my song on the Plugin with their voices in the DAW. Not so Hard and not so long, quick to perform if you're able to see a song structure. Then, just use your brain to achieve your "challenges" with actual means.

What we really need first is more virtual tracks, Mono-stereo tracks, working automations, non-destructive sample editing and a lot of lil'things.
Audio-Tracks are not, really not essential. I understand all of you but, look at the REN's Midi sequencer, the automation editing, notes editing and then wonder how will be the audio editing features... Record and move, cut, paste with keyboard ? How to handle these audio files ? Without a decent number of virtual tracks, with the lack of mono tracks, and even not a great audio routing scheme... A REN Should be able to handle at least 64 Tracks with infinite internal routing possibilities (to Group tracks, to create FX tracks, Send to BUS), before claiming to be a DAW and adding AudioTracks. Excuse me but LOL, be patient !

let the ren be a real Sampler - Sequencer first.

Let them fix the actual software in the little and gross details they missed, Please.

Danny wrote:i'm not against the idea of audio but there's a hell of a lot of other stuff that needs
seeing to first. get the stuff requested from legacy mpcs right, make that a solid foundation and work from there.

This.

comtox wrote: let the ren be a real Sampler - Sequencer first.

Let them fix the actual software in the little and gross details they missed, Please.

This.

comtox wrote:

labcoats wrote:Sequences being directly attached to the mixer is a perfect example of how the Ren can never compete in the daw arena. It would be the same as Pro Tools mixer being attached directly to regions.

labcoats wrote:

...I really think people need to learn routing audio directly from the plugin in their DAWs...

What is it I said you think is funny?

Sequences directly linked to the mixer - Why its bad!

For one it practically negates the very idea of creating arrangements in real time using the next seq feature. Arranging songs in real time whilst feeling the moment is something I dont think you have ever done - its something I do. I suspect your a 4 bar loop kind of guy and render to audio asap - am I right?

The Ren gives me (nearly) all the tools to at least get a decent mix of my song going. Using multiple sequences combined with next seq feature (u know for variation within the song) I can write the arrangement in real time. Sounds good huh...but wait!!

whilst Im messinbg around with my various seqeunces I notice the kik drum, or the bassline needs an EQ adjustement. However, if I change any of the processing plugin (eq, compressor, delay, chorus etc etc) settings on any track within any sequence I then have to manually make those changes in every sequence. Try it for your self and you will see. You will not notice or care about this if you use only one sequence which I suspect you do.

I could easily have 20 sequences. Now use your head and multiply any mix changes using multiple plugins within 30 tracks x 20 sequences - doing it manually. Do you see the rather huge issue now?

A work around IS NOT to render my parts as audio and then sequence everything in my Daw. That means I cannot do real time arrangements and obviously means I cannot edit sounds, midi data etc. I dont make music with static loops and Im definitely not alone in my methods. I want to complete the arrangement within the Ren AND if I can, have the mix done or at least nearly there. I can easily render all the tracks individually once the song is arranged, import to my Daw and do some mix enhancements if I want. Its really about flow, the moment of creating music. I write and mix simultaneously, again a lot of people work like that. Its basically making your tune sound like a record as you write it. People have been doing this for decades.

Dont assume I don't know how to route audio - of course I do. My only work around is to NEVER use any plugins with the Ren, always use the Ren as a plugin, and route the Rens separate outs to Daw aux tracks. However there isnt enough separate outs. But I shouldn't have to do that anyway. The Ren allows insertion of all my plugins, it has a mixer - BUT STUPIDLY the mixer and processing plugin settings are tied to individual sequences. A ridiculously convoluted system, wouldn't you agree?. I could easily write, edit and mix an entire album with the Ren - if the mixer wasnt tied to individual sequences.
Does this make it clear for you?

labcoats wrote:

comtox wrote:

labcoats wrote:Sequences being directly attached to the mixer is a perfect example of how the Ren can never compete in the daw arena. It would be the same as Pro Tools mixer being attached directly to regions.

labcoats wrote:

...I really think people need to learn routing audio directly from the plugin in their DAWs...

What is it I said you think is funny?

Sequences directly linked to the mixer - Why its bad!

For one it practically negates the very idea of creating arrangements in real time using the next seq feature. Arranging songs in real time whilst feeling the moment is something I dont think you have ever done - its something I do. I suspect your a 4 bar loop kind of guy and render to audio asap - am I right?

The Ren gives me (nearly) all the tools to at least get a decent mix of my song going. Using multiple sequences combined with next seq feature (u know for variation within the song) I can write the arrangement in real time. Sounds good huh...but wait!!

whilst Im messinbg around with my various seqeunces I notice the kik drum, or the bassline needs an EQ adjustement. However, if I change any of the processing plugin (eq, compressor, delay, chorus etc etc) settings on any track within any sequence I then have to manually make those changes in every sequence. Try it for your self and you will see. You will not notice or care about this if you use only one sequence which I suspect you do.

I could easily have 20 sequences. Now use your head and multiply any mix changes using multiple plugins within 30 tracks x 20 sequences - doing it manually. Do you see the rather huge issue now?

A work around IS NOT to render my parts as audio and then sequence everything in my Daw. That means I cannot do real time arrangements and obviously means I cannot edit sounds, midi data etc. I dont make music with static loops and Im definitely not alone in my methods. I want to complete the arrangement within the Ren AND if I can, have the mix done or at least nearly there. I can easily render all the tracks individually once the song is arranged, import to my Daw and do some mix enhancements if I want. Its really about flow, the moment of creating music. I write and mix simultaneously, again a lot of people work like that. Its basically making your tune sound like a record as you write it. People have been doing this for decades.

Dont assume I don't know how to route audio - of course I do. My only work around is to NEVER use any plugins with the Ren, always use the Ren as a plugin, and route the Rens separate outs to Daw aux tracks. However there isnt enough separate outs. But I shouldn't have to do that anyway. The Ren allows insertion of all my plugins, it has a mixer - BUT STUPIDLY the mixer and processing plugin settings are tied to individual sequences. A ridiculously convoluted system, wouldn't you agree?. I could easily write, edit and mix an entire album with the Ren - if the mixer wasnt tied to individual sequences.
Does this make it clear for you?

All of this. Bass akwards.

Labcoats wrote:What is it I said you think is funny?

I wasn't laughing about what you said and I didn't understand why Akai implemented the mixer in this way I 100% Agree with you, that's not how daws are designed !

And you didn't read my post ? I don't export my song in wave from the MPC. And in fact, there's still another problem working this way, submixes are not exported with separated tracks, you must exports each sub mixes one by one + separated tracks ... Whatever the way you work, the REN is a Puzzle.

Actually what I do :

1. I open the standalone and I have fun chopping, building programs, sequencing and arranging my song then I save my project.

2. I open my DAW with a Nice MPC 8 Outs Template I've done, I load my project, save this as a backup called "Beatname"tracking, route the audio from the Ren's track mixer to the 8 outs ( Same problem here, need to change Outs in every single sequence ) , then I mix the beat with all my Daw capabilities ( Huge regarding the REN's mixer design ).

3.I load the accapella or I record scratchings or a Ukulele or whatever you want to record and I arrange my beat in the plugin when needed.

4. When My song is finished, I arm the record buttons from the audio-tracks where the 8 OUTS goes and hit record, It put the waveform in place, mixed.

5. I close the MPC plugins and MIX/Master with the wave stems. Then finally EXPORT.

People should try this way and ask for a decent track mixer scheme before begging for Audio-tracks. As I said, It's really not essential.

Read my first post carefully and don't stop at the smiley

Unless you are an Akai developer, no one here is the authority on what the Ren will be in the future.

'Pseudo DAW'? What the heck is that? And what must a product have to consider it a 'real' DAW?

Akai has a plan for the Ren. Feature requests will never stop pouring in. Some of those requests have been added which each update. People can call the Ren what ever they choose to if it helps them sleep at night. But audio tracks are in inevitable. This is a feature a lot of users/potential users expect in a workstation. Quite a few of us use hardware sound modules over VSTs. We need a way to multitrack our MIDI sound modules into the Ren as audio. Audio tracks serve this purpose. Rewire? How is that a more important feature? The Ren/Studio is already a plugin that routes audio and MIDI from the MPC software into a DAW that hosts it.

And why turn the debate into Audio Tracks vs Rewire. Did a developer come out and say we can only have one or the other?

No need to get your feathers ruffled if audio tracks are added. You can simply choose to ignore them...just like I will ignore Rewire should that be implemented.

Edit - the Ren's Mixer is designed like an MPC not a DAW. Hard disk audio tracks and continuous sample tracks, which many users request, are hardware MPC features.

This will piss you off, but It's a 20 years Old design... Tracks mixer should be 100% sequences independent. No matter how it was designed on a MPC60 or even on a MPC5000... this design comes from another age.

Again, before thinking about audiotracks, AKAI should bring a real mixer with 10 post/pre Inserts, 10 post/pre sends, FX tracks, group tracks, busses, and at least with preset manager. And virtually an infinite numbers of outputs then the REN/studio could be ready for audiotracks.

Regarding your enthusiasm for the REN mixer... With all the respect you deserve, I start to think you really never mixed something in a DAW...

JAH wrote:Akai has a plan for the Ren

They had plans at the beginning to with the plugin duplication

Be honest, please. It's a freestyle development plan :-p

comtox wrote:This will piss you off, but It's a 20 years Old design... Tracks mixer should be 100% sequences independent. No matter how it was designed on a MPC60 or even on a MPC5000... this design comes from another age.

Again, before thinking about audiotracks, AKAI should bring a real mixer with 10 post/pre Inserts, 10 post/pre sends, FX tracks, group tracks, busses, and at least with preset manager. And virtually an infinite numbers of outputs then the REN/studio could be ready for audiotracks.

Regarding your enthusiasm for the REN mixer... With all the respect you deserve, I start to think you really never mixed something in a DAW...

JAH wrote:Akai has a plan for the Ren

They had plans at the beginning to with the plugin duplication

Be honest, please. It's a freestyle development plan :-p

No. Actually nothing pisses me off about the Ren. But my opinions and outlook in the Ren oddly pisses off a few folks.

I am an MPC user so obviously I know the Ren's mixer has an archaic legacy MPC design but still better than what we have in hardware MPCs. I expect it to be improved at some point. I can't wait personally.

I have no idea what you mean by 'Tracks mixer should be 100% sequences independent'. Adjusting the Track Mixer in one sequence has no impact on the Track Mixer of another sequence.

Audio tracks is much needed. The other features you mentioned do not need to be added before audio tracks IMO. They are not something I would expect in a Version 1x software.

A few of us here have seen the development plan. I will simply say what you speculate here as far as development is incorrect.