General mixing/mastering question, regarding peaking meters/

Adam78 wrote:

sirparksalot wrote:^^^No one that you "quoted" said any of those things...

Yea i noticed that after, weird .Well i wont do that again

sirparksalot wrote:Yes, exactly. My suggestion was to mix with good levels that do not distort anywhere in the mix and then use a limiter to bring the master bus signal to a commercial level. I'm not trying to sound upset or start an argument, I'm just trying to understand why mixing with 3 to 6 dB of headroom before limiting, and then using a limiter to peak at -.3 dB is bad advice.

Not necessarily bad advice, if the OP understands how to use a limiter, which doesn't seem very likely.

But, what is the point of leaving 3-6dB of headroom in the mix, before limiting?

I really don't see how it is necessary, unless you are sending the mix to a mastering engineer and they request it.

If the OP doesn't know how to use a limiter, then he should be mixing with the peak as close as he can get to 0dBFS without clipping.

Even if he does know how to use a limiter, I am not sure that the 3-6dB of headroom really achieves anything.

Hey drunkmonkey!

If you print the mix with some headroom its going to sound a lil better when you abuse it with the limiter to reach that -8 RMS. (especially with cheap mastering-plugs)
Sometimes maybe it wont ,depends on your recording & mix

Having 2-3 different mixdowns to check whats sounds best is not so painful. Just sticking with 1 thing or rule is not recommended.

If you dont care so much about small hidden distortions & artifacts i guess you could just SLAM that shit right up there.

I also think you started out wrong in the first place..theres an old engineer rule from the begining days of 24bit that says; If you start worrying about levels and clippings during the mixing stage you just probably recorded too hot.

Adam78 wrote:Hey drunkmonkey!If you print the mix with some headroom its going to sound a lil better when you abuse it with the limiter to reach that -8 RMS. (especially with cheap mastering-plugs)

What is the theory behind this, what difference does it make to the limiter if it is peaking at -8dBFS or at -.01dBFS before the limiter?

Adam78 wrote:If you dont care so much about small hidden distortions & artifacts i guess you could just SLAM that **** right up there.

The distortions and artifacts are due to how much you limiting you apply, not where the mix peaks before limiting.

Adam78 wrote:I also think you started out wrong in the first place..theres an old engineer rule from the begining days of 24bit that says; If you start worrying about levels and clippings during the mixing stage you just probably recorded too hot.

I do not agree with that at all.

Levels and clipping during mixing stage is a result of mixer fader positions and processing, it is nothing to do with how hot the signal was recorded originally.

Simon I know you will never agree with this, thats why i wont disscuss this topic with you..
You could just try it yourself and give it a shot instead of sticking with that old saying that louder mixes means louder beats. The days of 16bits recordings is long gone.

Now i think you seem very skilled and informed and i like reading your posts and some advises, its just a shame that it sometimes comes with ignorance and insults.

Adam78 wrote:Simon I know you will never agree with this, thats why i wont disscuss this topic with you..

No I probably won't, because it is incorrect.

Adam78 wrote:You could just try it yourself and give it a shot instead of sticking with that old saying that louder mixes means louder beats. The days of 16bits recordings is long gone.

Nothing to do with any old sayings.

Like I said, I do not see how it makes any difference if you send a mix with 8dB headroom, or a mix with .1dB headroom, into a limiter. It makes no difference to the amount of distortion and artifacts.

The distortion and artifacts are due to the amount of gain reduction taking place, not the amount of headroom in the source signal.

It is nothing to do with 16 bits.

The days of 16 bit recordings may be long gone, but the delivery formats are still really CD or MP3.

The OP wants his mixes to sound louder, closer to commercial recordings, that he is mixing and converting to mp3s, there is no mastering engineer.

Leaving 8dB of headroom is not going to help.

Leaving .1dB of headroom will help.

Brickwall peak limiting will help even more.

Adam78 wrote:Now i think you seem very skilled and informed and i like reading your posts and some advises, its just a shame that it sometimes comes with ignorance and insults.

There is no ignorance in this case, seriously, 8dB of headroom vs .1dB of headroom into a limiter makes no difference.

Where are the insults?

The mix should clip, but like I said before, it should clip occassionally and lightly.

Now if the meters are raised up and stuck on peaks then you will get distorted digital clipping that will leave your ears bleeding and gasping for silence.

SimonInAustralia wrote:

sirparksalot wrote:Yes, exactly. My suggestion was to mix with good levels that do not distort anywhere in the mix and then use a limiter to bring the master bus signal to a commercial level. I'm not trying to sound upset or start an argument, I'm just trying to understand why mixing with 3 to 6 dB of headroom before limiting, and then using a limiter to peak at -.3 dB is bad advice.

Not necessarily bad advice, if the OP understands how to use a limiter, which doesn't seem very likely.

Which is why I said to look up limiting on google.

But, what is the point of leaving 3-6dB of headroom in the mix, before limiting?

You get a decent amount of headroom for a safe clean signal. If you recorded at decent levels and your faders aren't past unity gain, this shouldn't be a problem anyways. Make it loud with bus compression/limiting.

I really don't see how it is necessary, unless you are sending the mix to a mastering engineer and they request it.

I don't suppose it is, but seeing as every mastering engineer asks for AT LEAST 3db of headroom before compression and limiting I don't think it's fair to say that it's wrong, either.

If the OP doesn't know how to use a limiter, then he should be mixing with the peak as close as he can get to 0dBFS without clipping.

This wasn't my point at all. That's why I suggested to learn how to use a limiter. He asked how to get his songs the loudest, so I told him.

Even if he does know how to use a limiter, I am not sure that the 3-6dB of headroom really achieves anything.

From the mastering engineers that I have talked to, it's less about having 'room' and more about just eliminating any chances of potential for intersample peaks and the resulting audible distortion. Could you get away with running your master as close to red as humanly possible? Yes. Should you? I probably wouldn't, especially if you are dealing with 24bit audio. Just play it safe while mixing and make it loud during limiting.

But I'm out simon, you contribute a lot of great info to the forums, alot of which I've learned from (especially dealing with the mpc 3000 card readers). I'm gonna just say that we agree to disagree because I'm not sure that this is going anywhere.

Adam78 wrote:Simon I know you will never agree with this, thats why i wont disscuss this topic with you..
You could just try it yourself and give it a shot instead of sticking with that old saying that louder mixes means louder beats. The days of 16bits recordings is long gone.

sirparksalot wrote:From the mastering engineers that I have talked to, it's less about having 'room' and more about just eliminating any chances of potential for intersample peaks and the resulting audible distortion. Could you get away with running your master as close to red as humanly possible? Yes. Should you? I probably wouldn't, especially if you are dealing with 24bit audio. Just play it safe while mixing and make it loud during limiting.

Once again this is completely wrong, if you have a track at -10db and turn it up to 0db later it would the same thing as mixing up to 0db the whole time.. It has nothing todo with 16 bit... It has nothing todo with anything! Also id much rather use those 8 bits for a higher quality recording/exporting than just 16bits with tons of headroom... That's what 32bit float is for! It's one thing if your not a confident engineer and what to leave alot of headroom for processing, but to to recommend using 1/3rd of your bit depth on headroom even if you don't need to it just plain bad information. I do agree however that unless your recording or exporting below 0db it dosnt matter, just mixing with headroom won't do anything destrutive. I know Adam talked about recording cold in the other thread.

In the end all that matters is having the final product peaking at -0.3db it dosnt matter how you get there. There is no change in sound until you clip in the digital realm.

There's a lot of confusion here with how limiters work and how an RMS meter works... Limiting a -10db signal at -11db is the same as limiting a 0db signal at -1db once they are exported at the same volume, the compression will be exactly the same and the RMS "loudness" value will remain the same as well.

HOWEVER! If we are talking about live mixing an recording then I completely agree, I've recorded shows and have had crazy dynamic ranges where things get way louder than they were initially. So I always leave tons of headroom on the board and interface. Which is where I think you guys are getting your "mixing enigeer" information, but if you have control over the source and the recording then its just wasting quality.

sirparksalot wrote:I don't suppose it is, but seeing as every mastering engineer asks for AT LEAST 3db of headroom before compression and limiting I don't think it's fair to say that it's wrong, either.

It is not being sent to a mastering engineer, that is why it is wrong, in the context of this thread and the questions the OP is asking.

sirparksalot wrote:

If the OP doesn't know how to use a limiter, then he should be mixing with the peak as close as he can get to 0dBFS without clipping.

This wasn't my point at all. That's why I suggested to learn how to use a limiter. He asked how to get his songs the loudest, so I told him.

You told him to leave 3-6dB of headroom, not necessary without it being sent for mastering, possibly confusing to the OP in his quest for louder mp3s.

You told him to Google limiting, might help to give him some more details, like specifically brick wall peak limiting, maybe an explanation of what it does, why it is used, etc.

sirparksalot wrote:Could you get away with running your master as close to red as humanly possible? Yes. Should you? I probably wouldn't, especially if you are dealing with 24bit audio. Just play it safe while mixing and make it loud during limiting.

This might be a single mix/limit scenario, there is no mastering engineer to master it.

This is dealing with mp3s and trying to make them as loud as possible, not just 24 bit audio.

m56p87 wrote:There's a lot of confusion here with how limiters work and how an RMS meter works... Limiting a -10db signal at -11db is the same as limiting a 0db signal at -1db once they are exported at the same volume, the compression will be exactly the same and the RMS "loudness" value will remain the same as well.

Yep, I do not understand the difference they are claiming.

Just because mastering engineers want some room to work with, and to avoid problems before they receive the audio, they think that headroom is required, without really understanding why.

SimonInAustralia wrote:ep, I do not understand the difference they are claiming.

I cant see why you think a clean recorded signal that runs thru your a/d converter
on levels that your gear was designed for is the same as a hotter noisier recorded signal. (whatever the spec)

Maybe you cant hear the differences but i rather boost and abuse the cleaner lower signal than the noisier one. Especially if we are talking about hardhitting drums with alot of sub bass going on.

Adam78 wrote:Where are the insults?

well lets just say i overreacted, its all good anyway.

Adam78 wrote:

SimonInAustralia wrote:ep, I do not understand the difference they are claiming.

I cant see why you think a clean recorded signal that runs thru your a/d converter
on levels that your gear was designed for is the same as a hotter noisier recorded signal. (whatever the spec)

Maybe you cant hear the differences but i rather boost and abuse the cleaner lower signal than the noisier one. Especially if we are talking about hardhitting drums with alot of sub bass going on.

AD converters are designed to handle signals up to 0dBFS cleanly.

Not sure where this noise in a signal that is peaking at something close to clipping is coming from.

You seem to have changed your focus from distortion/artifacts in a limited mix, if it has minimal headroom before the limiting, to noise in the AD conversion process when recording single tracks, if peaking close to clipping, isn't that a different thread?

Anyway, I do not agree on either count.

Adam78 wrote:isn't that a different thread?

I dont know any longer man, this was a general mixing and mastering questions thread and maybe i got too anal about it Hopefully i learned something and improved my english

Why does the person from am quating from change to my name?