pre-amp with the sm58 or a new condenser

I imagine theyre is already a similar thread but i couldnt really find one that was recent or relative to the specifics so...

My dilemma is this i have a shure sm58 its doing an adeuete job but is forcing the MC(s) im working with to use it in a certain manner; 'eating' the mic, approaching it at as close as possible distance. Now this is working while i have volume at max but as i said its not exactly comfortable for the rapper, having just that one option is not cool

So Im not sure whether to take a punt on a budget outboard (non usb) preamp or buy the condenser mic (MXL 990) i used with my old mc partner (demigod/soul junkies) or a equivalent like a Behringer or Samson C series i will be recording directly to my tascam's XLR input which has phantom powerbut no built in pre-amp

As far as i can tell from some research pre amps may improve the signal of the 58 but a cheap one may just add noise and cause more obstacles where as the right condenser will just be plug and play...any advice/opinion would be much appreciated

Condenser! (and pop filter)

SM58 are a budget live mic, OK in the studio if you want that particular sound, but not a decent studio mic in any way.

What Tascam are you plugging it into?

Having phantom power on that input suggests that it is a dedicated mic input, so should be a mic pre, and I am therefore not sure what you mean when you say it doesn't have a mic pre.

oh ok maybe it does its this one



US 122 MK II i bought it a couple weeks ago cos it had Cubase LE 5 bundled with it (i dont have the dough to buy a decent DAW, although I am thinking about 'renting' Adobe Audition from their new creative cloud service) i digress so yeah it may have pre amps it does have the volume knobs but as i said they are turned right up and the level is still low it also has phantom power but thats no good for a dynamic mic

Im thinking ill just buy the condenser

SM58 is a very nice mic (live AND studio) but in a studio you'll need a very good preamp to have good results. IMO nothing in the 100$ € range would sound that good so a condenser mic might be better in this situation but
IDK what kind of sound you really want and that brings me to the fact that your actual recording method (MC "eat" the mic) has a massive influence to the sound because of the proximity effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_ ... 28audio%29 . So if you want THAT sound the MC need to be that near to the mic no matter what preamp you use.

peace

EDIT: I just saw that Tascam interface you posted. audio interfaces of that (price)range often lack on the mic preamp especially when it comes to microphones with a low sensitivity. My m-audio FastTrackPro also cannot handle a SM58. I have to raise the gain to max and thats brings a hell of noise into the recording. But even with my condeser mic with nearly 4 times higher sensitivity (Oktava MK319) I need to raise the gain to a level that has a little too much noise.

Ask your friend if someone has a mic preamp and test the SM58 with it. Thats the only recommandation I can give.

shank carvin wrote::so yeah it may have pre amps it does have the volume knobs but as i said they are turned right up and the level is still low it also has phantom power but thats no good for a dynamic mic

Im thinking ill just buy the condenser

Yes, it is a mic pre, but probably/obviously doesn't provide enough gain for the SM58 to give you a strong signal.

I think a condenser is the way to go, will most probably be more sensitive and have a hotter output than the SM58.

Will also give you a different sounding mic option, even if it ends up not working as well as the SM58 for the vocal styles you are recording, but you will not really know until you give it a try.

Not really sure what the best budget condenser mic is these days, so many options at the low end now.

er well i do want that sound as in i want clarity and vocals at a level i can work with but thats my only option; if the MC is even more than 5" from the mic the level drops dramatically...its so much an effect or recording method im aiming it its just the only way i can get a high enough recording level without asking the MC to rhyme louder than he wants to thus forcing him to work for the mic rather than the mic working for him

(*pretty much what youve suggested simon...) I have read that maybe its the amount of power the mic receives from the interface that makes the response weaker however everywhere i look seems to reccomend the 58 as firstly a great live mic and secondly a good mic for rock/metal/loud band vocaists so although a pre amp would work its probly not worth the price when i can get a condenser for the same price as a good pre amp (as you also suggest piper)

* simon for the record i have recorded a lot of vocals (check the badn camp link to soul junkies in my sig) so i am aware of different recording techniques

shank carvin wrote:I have read that maybe its the amount of power the mic receives from the interface that makes the response weaker

With an SM58, no, it is a dynamic mic, it does not use any power from the mic pre/interface to operate, unlike a condenser mic which needs power to operate, which is often taken from the phantom power output of the mic pre input.

As long as the phantom power circuit is within spec, it will generally provide enough power for a condenser mic to operate correctly, without having a weaker response due to insufficient phantom power.

How a condenser mic would operate under low phantom power conditions would be up to the design of each different mic, I would imagine that it would not necessarily result in a lower output signal, but might also result in a distorted or noisy signal, or no signal at all.

The weak response you are experiencing is most probably just a combination of the standard low output of the SM58, and the low gain available in your interface mic pres.

Now that you stated that the issue is the leveldrop at anything more than 5", this is what I have to say:


Condenser




I thought "eat" ment: near as a kiss.





peace

Yeah if it wasnt for the pop shield im pretty sure my dude would have to 'get his will smith on'

Condenser it is...cheers fellas

Peace

No probs.

But, I would then be looking at getting a quality mic pre later on, if/when you can afford/justify the cost.

So your saying i may experiance the same problem with the condenser?...i can see what your saying; whats the point of having more sensitivity if its being powered through the same source?...hmmmmm

Maybe i should try routing the sm58 through my dj mixer (my small 8 channel tapco is eating up my outputs) before buying a condenser?...in theory this means the dj mixer is powering the mic (its a gemni dsx or something like that it has dedicated mic controls including gain and eqs ) and the interface is just relaying/recording the signal from the mic via the dj mixers booth/line out?

shank carvin wrote:So your saying i may experiance the same problem with the condenser?...i can see what your saying; whats the point of having more sensitivity if its being powered through the same source?...hmmmmm

Maybe i should try routing the sm58 through my dj mixer (my small 8 channel tapco is eating up my outputs) before buying a condenser?...in theory this means the dj mixer is powering the mic (its a gemni dsx or something like that it has dedicated mic controls including gain and eqs ) and the interface is just relaying/recording the signal from the mic via the dj mixers booth/line out?

No, not really.

You are not powering the SM58, as such, it is sending out a signal, and the mic preamp at the inputs of your Tascam interface are amplifying that signal, before it is converted to a digital signal.

There is no power going into the SM58, that the SM58 is using for it's operation, the SM58 operates without power.

I think that the condenser will probably be better, probably have a hotter output, and therefore work better with your interface and the amount of gain provided by your interface preamps.

I also think that the condenser mic will have a more detailed, clearer, better sound than the SM58.

But, that really depends on the exact mic, I suppose, you really need to test it with your interface, and style of vocals, before knowing for sure.


Maybe try using a mic input on your DJ mixer, and see if it gives you more gain, without noise, into your interface.

I use this with an SM7, it's an inline FET amplifier that runs on phantom power and might help you with the SM58:

http://tritonaudio.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=33

It's around 99.00 USD.

My budget condenser is sensitive, it picks up any noise from the outside environment. Planes, trains and automobiles. Great for recording vocals, but a real pain in the ass at times. A good soundproofed recording space with internal sound treatment is advisable, unless you want to record your neighbors having sex while watching Jeremy Kyle...

I got a old fire door and carpets/fleece bankets to box in the small space i have.

I can, in my humble opinion, record vocals well its just that my equipment isnt adequete hence the thread i think ive gotta take a punt with the MXL 990 as thats the mic i recorded the soul junkies stuff on and that came out well...reality is ive always had the sm58 and always used the 990 given the price of a pre i think thats the best option (as long as the dj mixer doesnt provide that extra umph when i test it out 2moro)