The gear doesn't make the music...

I only really see this online, honestly. In real music circles, while there will definitely be gear talk sometimes, nobody cares what you use if it sounds like shit. Instead, they talk most about the creative aspects and processes. People only ever ask what you used if they're impressed and I doubt that they'll change their minds once they find out it's a particular type of technology.

Here's an analogy. There are good pens and bad inks, but all good pens and fine ink achieve equally great results when used by a great and proficient hand. Lesser users will assume it must be the pens or the inks because they cannot achieve the same results with any combination but do perceive the subtle improvements caused by the inks and pens themselves and readily recognize the superior results of another's proficient hand. While fine tools do have a limited effect, the proficient hand would achieve better results than the unpracticed hand even if using lesser but still sufficient tools. The unsteadied hand foolishly, through misunderstanding, often ends with false attributions given to the tools instead. It's the same in audio and music. I also believe it's because these audio tools are marketed in the same manner they are discussed on forums, with too much emphasis on the impact of the gear.

Don't get me wrong. Great gear is great gear but in reality it should only serve to enhance what the user is capable of and afford freer self expression.

Audio production is a very technical field and it's normal for people to be interested in the craftwork and thus the gear. However, craft and art are two different things. The importance of the gear is in how it causes the user to interact with it and react to it creatively, nothing more. It's very subjective. It can even be argued that the best gear is simply that that allows you to do what you need to do creatively and aesthetically without having to think about the technicalities of the gear itself. The problem is that when you mix subjectivity with the internet—where many have the rare chance to impose their opinions—you run into issues, as for some reason the internet convinces a lot of people that they actually know what the **** they're talking about, when they don't. Blame anonymity.

It would seem that most of the people making music now are not by nature artists and so it's easier to talk about consumerism. Given something to talk about, these people are egged on by the new found confidence of being able to talk about something that they are passionate about. It gives them as sense of belonging, I believe. There's nothing wrong with that but I do feel it's why you have forums that totally lack all talk about creativity and process. It's worse in audio production than in photography, video, graphic design, and definitely traditional art forms like composing and painting for sure. Probably because of accessibility and presets. It's easier to talk and debate about goods than subjectivity and art.

As far as plug-ins vs hardware. I've heard horrible examples of both. I personally don't give a shit if it's a DIY compressor with wine corks for knobs if your results are impressive. Sure, I have biases, but that has to do solely with tastes and not what's best for everyone.

I typed that very quickly so it may not even make sense. Regardless, this is just my opinion…not fact.

Undertow wrote:I only really see this online, honestly. In real music circles, while there will definitely be gear talk sometimes, nobody cares what you use if it sounds like ****. Instead, they talk most about the creative aspects and processes. People only ever ask what you used if they're impressed and I doubt that they'll change their minds once they find out it's a particular type of technology.

Audio production is a very technical field and it's normal for people to be interested in the craftwork and thus the gear. However, craft and art are two different things. The importance of the gear is in how it causes the user to interact with it and react to it creatively, nothing more. It's very subjective. It can even be argued that the best gear is simply that that allows you to do what you need to do creatively and aesthetically without having to think about the technicalities of the gear itself. The problem is that when you mix subjectivity with the internet—where many have the rare chance to impose their opinions—you run into issues, as for some reason the internet convinces a lot of people that they actually know what the **** they're talking about, when they don't. Blame anonymity.

Here's an analogy. There are good pens and bad inks, but all good pens and fine ink achieve equally great results when used by a great and proficient hand. Lesser users will assume it must be the pens or the inks because they cannot achieve the same results with any combination but do perceive the subtle improvements caused by the inks and pens themselves and readily recognize the superior results of another's proficient hand. While fine tools do have a limited effect, the proficient hand would achieve better results than the unpracticed hand even if using lesser but still sufficient tools. The unsteadied hand foolishly, through misunderstanding, often ends with false attributions given to the tools instead. It's the same in audio and music. I also believe it's because these audio tools are marketed in the same manner they are discussed on forums, with too much emphasis on the impact of the gear.

Don't get me wrong. Great gear is great gear but in reality it should only serve to enhance what the user is capable of and afford freer self expression.

Most of the people making music now are not by nature artists and so it's easier to talk about consumerism. Given something to talk about, these people are egged on by the new found confidence of being able to talk about something that they are passionate about. It gives them as sense of belonging, I believe. There's nothing wrong with that but I do feel it's why you have forums that totally lack all talk about creativity and process. It's worse in audio production than in photography, video, graphic design, and definitely traditional art forms like composing and painting for sure. Probably because of accessibility and presets. It's easier to talk and debate about goods than subjectivity and art.

As far as plug-ins vs hardware. I've heard horrible examples of both. I personally don't give a **** if it's a DIY compressor with wine corks for knobs if your results are impressive. Sure, I have biases, but that has to do solely with tastes and not what's best for everyone.

I typed that very quickly so it may not even make sense. Regardless, this is just my opinion…not fact.

Yes.

Also, you can have 5 MPCs, multiple expensive keyboards, multiple synths, an expensive audio interface, multiple DAWs, multiple expensive plugins, and not make one beat in a decade. We all know someone like that.

Not only do we all know someone like that, some of us will often even be that person at some time in our lives. It's too easy to get caught up in gear when it's thrown at us 24hrs a day, when upgrading becomes common place and when there is a clear absence of healthy communities where healthier focuses—on art and sound—exists to motivate. Engineered obsolesce and being spoiled for choice only further exacerbates these tendencies.

MaZe wrote:Also, you can have 5 MPCs, multiple expensive keyboards, multiple synths, an expensive audio interface, multiple DAWs, multiple expensive plugins, and not make one beat in a decade. We all know someone like that.

Dude that is literally my gear list, for about almost a decade...but I do have beats here.

Did the NSA give you flicks of my crib....?

Metatron72 wrote:

MaZe wrote:Also, you can have 5 MPCs, multiple expensive keyboards, multiple synths, an expensive audio interface, multiple DAWs, multiple expensive plugins, and not make one beat in a decade. We all know someone like that.

Dude that is literally my gear list, for about almost a decade...but I do have beats here.

Did the NSA give you flicks of my crib....?

Ha! Nah, I'm talking about your friend. You know, the one with a pic of his crib in his signature.

Undertow wrote:Not only do we all know someone like that, some of us will often even be that person at some time in our lives. It's too easy to get caught up in gear when it's thrown at us 24hrs a day, when upgrading becomes common place and when there is a clear absence of healthy communities where healthier focuses—on art and sound—exists to motivate. Engineered obsolesce and being spoiled for choice only further exacerbates these tendencies.

Absolutely agree. These are all reasons why I have personally gone back to the basics and the necessities when it comes to my gear lately. The inundation of lights and colors perpetuated by consumerism and marketing have turned me off to anything new and unnecessary.

For sure. I just realized your comment was referring to gear collectors though. That's something else all together. I thought you meant just getting caught up in the creative vacuum of the internet and it causing a lack of inspiration.

Undertow wrote:For sure. I just realized your comment was referring to gear collectors though. That's something else all together. I thought you meant just getting caught up in the creative vacuum of the internet and it causing a lack of inspiration.

I agree with this as well. The Internet is a gift and a curse when it comes to getting inspired.

Nah, I don't know that dude, but that speaker placement is asinine...

Is he the guy who used to post under an Arabic word for complete power...

Y'all inspire me but I see your point.

Metatron72 wrote:Nah, I don't know that dude, but that speaker placement is asinine...

Is he the guy who used to post under an Arabic word for complete power...

Y'all inspire me but I see your point.

They aren't even plugged in tho....

But to get back on topic, it is dudes like that dude that tend to lead the new beat maker in the wrong direction when it comes to gear because it is the blind collector leading the blind newbie into thinking they need all of this gear, when they don't. As Undertow said, I'm sure this is an internet producer phenomenon as producers that really make it or have made are confident enough in their skills and the gear that they use and they don't worry too much about what anyone else is doing.

Do i need an mpc to make music? NO
Does the MPC allow me to work in a way that and allows me to be a s creative as possible without crushing any of my motivation? YES

mutha's can bang on pots and pans to make beats for all i care, just get it banging.

Ill-Green wrote:Gear can inspire music. I feel the connection knowing my favorite producers used what I'm using. But gear cannot make music without the mind and soul of the individual that crafts it. If that was the case then my machines are Go-Bots!!

Very well said.

Undertow wrote:I only really see this online, honestly. In real music circles, while there will definitely be gear talk sometimes, nobody cares what you use if it sounds like ****. Instead, they talk most about the creative aspects and processes. People only ever ask what you used if they're impressed and I doubt that they'll change their minds once they find out it's a particular type of technology.

Here's an analogy. There are good pens and bad inks, but all good pens and fine ink achieve equally great results when used by a great and proficient hand. Lesser users will assume it must be the pens or the inks because they cannot achieve the same results with any combination but do perceive the subtle improvements caused by the inks and pens themselves and readily recognize the superior results of another's proficient hand. While fine tools do have a limited effect, the proficient hand would achieve better results than the unpracticed hand even if using lesser but still sufficient tools. The unsteadied hand foolishly, through misunderstanding, often ends with false attributions given to the tools instead. It's the same in audio and music. I also believe it's because these audio tools are marketed in the same manner they are discussed on forums, with too much emphasis on the impact of the gear.

Don't get me wrong. Great gear is great gear but in reality it should only serve to enhance what the user is capable of and afford freer self expression.

Audio production is a very technical field and it's normal for people to be interested in the craftwork and thus the gear. However, craft and art are two different things. The importance of the gear is in how it causes the user to interact with it and react to it creatively, nothing more. It's very subjective. It can even be argued that the best gear is simply that that allows you to do what you need to do creatively and aesthetically without having to think about the technicalities of the gear itself. The problem is that when you mix subjectivity with the internet—where many have the rare chance to impose their opinions—you run into issues, as for some reason the internet convinces a lot of people that they actually know what the **** they're talking about, when they don't. Blame anonymity.

It would seem that most of the people making music now are not by nature artists and so it's easier to talk about consumerism. Given something to talk about, these people are egged on by the new found confidence of being able to talk about something that they are passionate about. It gives them as sense of belonging, I believe. There's nothing wrong with that but I do feel it's why you have forums that totally lack all talk about creativity and process. It's worse in audio production than in photography, video, graphic design, and definitely traditional art forms like composing and painting for sure. Probably because of accessibility and presets. It's easier to talk and debate about goods than subjectivity and art.

As far as plug-ins vs hardware. I've heard horrible examples of both. I personally don't give a **** if it's a DIY compressor with wine corks for knobs if your results are impressive. Sure, I have biases, but that has to do solely with tastes and not what's best for everyone.

I typed that very quickly so it may not even make sense. Regardless, this is just my opinion…not fact.

You made a few excellent points here, and the main one being the fact that the internet inherently creates that "anonymity" factor. So it makes it easier for people to talk about so-on without feeling intimidated by others. I just don't understand the war between hardware and software, and why it should really matter. Yes, there are certain sounds you can only get from some hardware, and that's valid. But if someone does a really good job and takes their time to try to emulate that hardware because they don't have the funds or opportunity currently to access that hardware, I would respect that if it sounded good to me. It's silly.

Does it even matter what they think if you yourself like the sound of a plugin? It kind of seems like an argument of futility. If you yourself like something, it's OK if others do not.

There are differences, absolutely, and valid reasons to prefer one or the other. Yet, all the reasons are subjective. Even if there are cases where the software and hardware don't even sound alike, which is often, who cares? Do you like what it does?

As a side-note, I finally reread through the thread and realized that you were talking about gear elitism. Initially, I thought you were just referring to the gear obsession online and the proposed idea that tools have more of an impact than the user itself, hence my original reply.

I challenge folks to list to my links and honestly ask whether they can tell it was made on the cheapest software around. Dirty in - dirty out. Software can do everything hardware can and i own MPCs and an ASR-10.

What links?