best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

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Re: best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

By SimonInAustralia Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:24 pm
Coz wrote:What DAW are you using? In Cubase it's a piece of piss to realign or purposely misalign audio in millisecond increments. So yeah, erroneous timing can be fixed manually with ease.

The only tool you need is your ears.

Do not agree, doesn't matter what DAW you are in.

Of course it is a piece of piss to move audio around inside a DAW, in sample increments if you want, that does not make it easy to get something into sync exactly where it should be.

If you want it exact, you can do it using sounds as visual sync markers in the audio.

Slipping audio around in a DAW randomly, listening to see if it is in sync or not, is not an accurate way to do it, and pretty much impossible to get it as accurate as it can be.

Anyway, I suppose there is no point in using any sort of sync at all, as it is a piece of piss to realign audio manually, by ear. :Sigh:
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Re: best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

By SimonInAustralia Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:31 pm
Lampdog wrote:You can't slide it into place, if you don't know what 'in place' actually is.
You have ears, they are for music, use them, music is not made completely by numbers.

It can't be fixed manually, without knowing how much out of sync it is in the first place, or without having some sort of sync points/markers/whatever to line up.
Again, your forgetting ears dude.

Derailing by focusing on numbers when sliding/nudging can be done with ears too ya know. Both, a mix of both techniques is very useful too.

Sorry, but suggesting that sliding different recording passes around to get them into sync, by ear, is somehow easy and the best way to do it, makes me question whether you have ever actually tried to do it yourself.

Anyway, I'm out, this conversation is getting ridiculous...the best way to sync multiple takes inside a DAW is apparently by ear, slipping them around randomly until they sound like they are in sync, rather than using a recorded sound as a visual sync marker to give easy sample accurate sync. :Sigh:
Last edited by SimonInAustralia on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

By Coz Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:36 pm
SimonInAustralia wrote:Of course it is a piece of piss to move audio around inside a DAW, in sample increments if you want, that does not make it easy to get something into sync exactly where it should be.



It does. You just need to know what you're doing, which evidently a lot of people don't.

There's no such thing as an "exact" place that something should be. And if there is then I have zero issues in achieving it.


SimonInAustralia wrote:Anyway, I suppose there is no point in using any sort of sync at all, as it is a piece of piss to realign audio manually, by ear. :Sigh:



Which is exactly why I don't bother. :wink:
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Re: best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

By SimonInAustralia Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:43 pm
Coz wrote:There's no such thing as an "exact" place that something should be. And if there is then I have zero issues in achieving it.

When tracking in a beat from an MPC to a DAW, using multiple passes for different MPC tracks/sounds/etc., there is an "exact" place that something should be.

The sounds within each separate recording pass should keep their sync, their "exact" place in time, compared to the sounds in other recording passes, measured against their original timing within the MPC sequence.

The "exact" place that something should be within the DAW, is the same "exact" place that something should be within the MPC sequence when played from the MPC.

If you have a kick exactly at bar 1, and a snare hit at exactly bar 2, in the MPC, you would probably want those to be exactly at bar 1 and bar 2 when recorded into the DAW on different passes.

I do not agree that you can line up multiple takes, in the "exact" place each take should be, by ear.
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Re: best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

By Coz Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:17 pm
SimonInAustralia wrote:I do not agree that you can line up multiple takes, in the "exact" place each take should be, by ear.



A combination of by ear and the visual, obviously. When zoomed in you can see your millisecond nudges as they happen. It's easy and powerful.

Image


It's not uncommon for the 'exact' timing within the MPC to sound better in a DAW once nudged around slightly. You just need to get your mind out of the locked box it inhabits. Either that or someone needs to show you a tutorial of how it's done.
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Re: best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

By Metatron72 Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:38 pm
But like Coz is saying, if you zoom in your DAW and get everything on a uniform "1" at the start the chances are overwhelmingly good that you'll have the entire song/stems in line. Although the minute slop/drift that Simon brought up might rear it's head now and then.

But like Lamp said you have your ears to determine if any drift is a deal breaker or affects your song so adversely that it's ruined, which isn't usually going to be the case.

Do PT packages ever a include a copy of Ableton Live Lite?

Ableton saves my bacon at times if any audio stems that began as MIDI triggered tracks do show any discernible drift or bad variance due to MIDI issues from earlier in the process.

In Live you move the offending audio part(s) in ms increments and again as Lamp mentioned just give it few listening passes and trust your ears that you've fixed it.
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Re: best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

By Lampdog Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:19 pm
SimonInAustralia wrote:Sorry, but suggesting that sliding different recording passes around to get them into sync, by ear, is somehow easy and the best way to do it, makes me question whether you have ever actually tried to do it yourself.


You know damn well stems/tracks in a daw can be nudged anywhere you need them to be. That makes me question (not really cause I could care less how you work) if you've ever used your ears and tech together. I've already stated I use both.

Coz and Met also prove that point, not even an opinion, it's a simple fact it's what daws do. Zoom in and get down to sample level if you want/need that level of accuracy you so desire but can't get from midi clock.

I've done this on:

Sony Vegas
Audobe Audition
Reaper

Not against you Simon, just saying midi sync is not the end of our accuracy/inaccuracy daw journey.
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Re: best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

By LarryB Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:48 pm
...so now i know why some people record beats on one track in protools.. to avoid lining everything up afraid that it might be the slightest slightest bit less exact than it was in the mp lol

it does bother me slightly to think that i would have to just zoom the f-ck in and hear/see to make sure everythings lined up properly rather than software doing it in the first place how it should? i dont know

i totally understand what i started the thread asking, but its lead to an interesting conversation

thanks boys :popcorn:
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Re: best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

By Metatron72 Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:56 pm
I think everybody in the thread would say the same that using samples and MIDI to make songs is something where you have to juggle a few knowledge sets, and be ready to find the ways to fix little imperfections or problem solve or try to avoid them all together.

None of this is too hard after you go through it for a while, and the main thing is for every minor issue that crops up there's at least 3 ways to fix it and maybe ways to prevent it even like I mentioned.

Just make your decision on the single pair of outs or pay more for multiple outs, if you haven't 100% decided on the 2 outs yet. Everything mentioned in this will be a bit of trail and error...but it's all more stuff that you'll encounter in trying to have 100% dead on timings and recording exactly what you meant to.

As you learn the ups and downs and solutions remember none of this stuff is going to stop your song making dead in it's tracks at all.

You just sound pretty concerned about the whole picture as you get ready to get your setup LarryB, but it's really not going to be that bad. And the forum will always have be people willing to help with whatever does come up.
Last edited by Metatron72 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

By Lampdog Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:56 pm
Also some people may not have audio interfaces capable of multi input.
Some people may have 2k/2kxl's without 8 outs.
They would have to stick with left/right all the way into their daw.

Ultimately the best method imo is...

capability of your gear + your choice of routing and/or tracking options within that capability that fit your vision.
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Re: best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

By SimonInAustralia Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:42 pm
Lampdog wrote:You know damn well stems/tracks in a daw can be nudged anywhere you need them to be. That makes me question (not really cause I could care less how you work) if you've ever used your ears and tech together. I've already stated I use both.

I know that you can move audio anywhere you want in a DAW.

It is not necessarily easy to line up separate stems/passes by ear, depending on what sort of audio is in each stem, whether it has any clear matching rhythmic or other references between the stems for example.

I have tried it, quite a number of times, and once different audio tracks get out of sync, it can be very hard to guess by ear, or visually, where exactly they are meant to line up.

That makes me question if you have every really done this sort of thing yourself, with material that does not have a clear rhythmic or other similar sound between the tracks to line up.

And even though you can move audio anywhere you want in a DAW, there is no way that you are going to line up separate passes by ear with anywhere near sample accuracy.

You can do this visually, with some sort of sync sound/pulse in the recorded tracks, and to deny this accuracy because you are trying to make some sort of "I'm so old skool hop hop that I use my ears not my eyes" point is a little ridiculous.


Lampdog wrote:Coz and Met also prove that point, not even an opinion, it's a simple fact it's what daws do. Zoom in and get down to sample level if you want/need that level of accuracy you so desire but can't get from midi clock.

Yes, I have been saying that all along, zoom into sample level and line up a prerecorded sync pulse/sound at the start of each separate recording pass, so that you have sample accurate sync between passes.

You are not going to get the same level of accuracy, compared to the beat as it is in the MPC, by slipping separate passes around and listening for sync by ear, it just isn't happening.

For a lot of users, one of the reasons they use an MPC is for the tightness and feel of the sequencer, it makes no sense to me to screw that up by recording a sequence in separate out of sync passes, just to prove how old skool you are by using your ears, and not using the sample accurate visual tools you have at your disposal.
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Re: best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

By LarryB Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:17 am
many thanks meta!

post number 33 too :o


and what simon just said makes perfect sense to me, although i havent even used the mixer yet that ive been asking the sync questions about, my main issue was not wanting to have to line things up by hearing/zooming in on it etc, when the mpc has it exactly how i want it to, even a milisecond would bother me, not because i could or couldnt hear it, but more so because i know it would potentially occur.. haha as stupid as that may sound.
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Re: best method of recording into mbox/protools etc

By Metatron72 Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:46 am
Nah that doesn't sound stupid man. You're just considering the angles before making your setup and picturing what the workflow/potential pitfalls are, that's smart.

I think from all you've posted LarryB, you'd be best served by going for an interface with 6 or 8 inputs so you can record all (or most is you cross the 6 or 8 track barrier in your MPC song) at one time to avoid some of the potential headaches that have come up in the thread.

An 1k will be 6 outputs, a 2500 will be 8 outputs.

If you do get an interface that handles all the MPC's individual outs at once the DAW software will easily be able to have 6 or 8 audio tracks recording at one time, and you'll likely avoid some of the issues with tracks lining up as Simon has brought up.

If the mixer has 8 inputs and outputs you can use that in the middle of the signal chain for the FX or not. Then you still have the MPC's internal FX (they are so so really) or higher quality plugins you can apply to the multiple tracks you record in the DAW.

You could even record the MPC's output dry with no FX and apply FX in the mixing stage after the tracks are recorded into the computer.

So you have multiple options all pretty easy to use and set up, but again I think an interface with multiple inputs is what solves the majority of your potential concerns you've brought up.

Not sure on your budget, but like I mentioned in a prior post the MBox 3 Pro has 6 inputs (8 total I think but that counts the lower quality RCA ones in the tally).

And again your MIDI concerns have nothing to do with mixer, so you can have your MIDI set up and use the mixer or not use the mixer, either or.
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