gain structure

I think this is the gain structure:

SAMPLE>Midi cc 07>Filter Attenuation>AMP in the Mod Matrix>Zone Level>KeyGroup Level>Program Volume>Multi Volume>-3db>Global db

Please dont quote this if its wrong, ill change it so it doesnt confuse people.

not sure what youre saying here... are you asking a question? are you making a diagram?

We were clogging up the newbie bible. I started this in hopes to get the final word on

the gain structure. It is making alot more sense 313. You asked earlier what settings?

There really is no set and forget setting. You can think of it as a multi channel mixer.

Not every one of your sources need the same amount of gain or attentuation. Youre

going to have to make adjustments as you go. You just have to understand the gain

structure. Sometimes you will try to make changes and has no effect. Sometimes you

wont be able to have a full dynamic range. Its getting easier to understand,

theres just a few things I need to clear up.

i always just turn it down if it clips. i know you may need to turn down levels in every new program to achieve the range of quiet to loud possible with different velocities. not understanding the tilt velocity or what parameter hes even talking about. i do understand gain as far as mixing goes however.

Interesting threads related to gain staging. Ill be adding more as I come across them.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79437

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61308&hilit=master+level

Bump. How about the users who have been here for years chime in?

Clint, Feline, can you explain the gain staging?

Oh not this again!

We did this to death back in about 2003 To be honest, I can't remember the detail without looking it all up again, but off the top of my head:

there's basically only ONE gain stage, and nearly ALL those parameters you list ALL adjust that single gain stage!
I think the Master Level is a further pad on the end, and there's maybe one or two others (sample level?).

That's why it's so f*cking confusing, cos there's about 15 different parameters which all change the same gain stage, cancelling each other out and hitting ceilings.

Last put it to rest, let's prove it, finalize it. Reading those threads myself, there was alot of overhyped complaining. It is probably easier than this board made it seem.

So if we at least -28 db on the master, its ok? If I did that I would lose some of the characteristics of the sample.

dustymaestro wrote:Clint, Feline, can you explain the gain staging?

Im not confident that my knowledge of gain staging in the MPC4000 is good enough to be explaining things. I think a commonsense approach is best employed, by 'mixing as you go', monitoring the master output and setting it at an appropriate db output level via the MPC4000 software options. Obviously, adding internal FX also affect the gain.

It goes without saying, that gain staging begins with the sampling inputs and maintaining a good signal-to-noise-ratio at source. With so many parameters able to affect the gain, (pre) mixing as you go to maintain a good balance of levels works well, as does setting the master output level at a setting lower than 0db. Leave a little headroom for the mix/mastering engineers to work with later on.

Damn, I just want to find the order they go. Global db is last, we know that. I noticed the filter drives the amp. Isnt that backwards in typical synthesis?

dustymaestro wrote:I noticed the filter drives the amp. Isnt that backwards in typical synthesis?

No, it is how it is usually done, audio output of filters into VCA.

Otherwise a self-oscillating filter would output audio constantly, instead of just when the synth voice is triggered, if the VCA was before the filters.

But just to clarify, if one sets the master level headroom to a suitably low value (-24dBFS? Or was it even lower?) the inconsistencies go away, right?

The default global level is fine. I turn it down both at multi and program level. Theres some good info on page 10-11 in the newbie bible.

Sometimes I have it at default to 0db for drums feeding a compressor. I dont need that much dynamics with drums. If it sounds good, dont worry about it too much.

Ok, but what I mean is that by keeping the master level at a low value, you never need to turn anything down in order to get full dynamics or resort to any extra tricks, right? I have plenty of gain on my mixer to compensate for low input levels.. FWIW I never use the MPC to do songs/mixing in-the-mpc-box

tsutek wrote:Ok, but what I mean is that by keeping the master level at a low value, you never need to turn anything down in order to get full dynamics or resort to any extra tricks, right? I have plenty of gain on my mixer to compensate for low input levels.. FWIW I never use the MPC to do songs/mixing in-the-mpc-box

You should try it. If it effects the sound how you like it, leave it low. If you dont like it at global level turn it down at the program and multi level.