Popping!!!

Always Ren only for me.

LarryB wrote:simoninaustralia,

do you use the ren? do you sample vinyl into it? do you chop samples?

i am not trying to be a dick, but im going to go out on a limb and say that you dont.

im not going to even answer if i have both input output to the ren, because that literally (if you knew the problem like the people who are experiencing know it) would have nothing to do with the type of popping issue that is occuring.

it is clearly a software issue they need to fix, nothing involving anyones mac or windows software, soundcard etc...

and the mixer integration is sadly not working properly. i have hte phono directly going into the ren, but that would have nothing to do with the chops problems etc that ppl are experiencing. its clearly not an audio problem but an mpc software problem.

Does anyone using Windows have the problem or is it Mac only?

Can sample and chop all day on Windows 7 with the Renn and no issues whatsoever.

Just for sake of another instance of this popping happening...

I do most of my work on a 5000. Do some chopping... sometimes intricate, sometimes not. But never hear the pops on the 5000.

I always transfer my 5000 projects to the MPC software for exporting wavs to my DAW. When I play the project in the MPC software, I hear the pops when one sample cuts another one off. And I'm using the same monitors to listen to both. At first when I heard pops I thought I was nuts for chopping so sloppy in the 5000 and missing it, so went back and played the project in the 5000... didn't hear the pops there.

It almost seems like previous MPC models compensated with a slight fade in / out when samples begin / end, but the MPC software doesn't do the same.

The only way I could get rid of the pops is to go through each sample in the MPC software, and do a manual fade in between 0 and 100 (sample start and sample end points). If the pop happens at the end I'll have to do it there too. Though for me I usually notice it at the beginning of each sample.

Not adding to a solution, just adding another perspective. Thought this was just because of the way my workflow is. Interesting that others are experiencing the same.

^exactly..

i feel your pain. another perfect example of it not being a hardware problem and can be directly blamed on the akai mpc software.

is there honestly any way of contacting akai about this problem?

i feel like every update they will just add random things here and there and barely fix issues such as this popping that so many ppl are experiencing.

they've made a choice to have default behavior a hard cut on samples, so you have to make sure you always chop on the zero crossing, the point where the waveform crosses the middle zero line. i guess that on previous mpcs the default behavior was to give a small attack envelope on every chop. maybe they could include a 'vintage chopping' or 'smooth chop' option somewhere in the program.

personally i prefer to chop with a hard attack envelope and always chop on the zero crossing, except on drums which i sometimes chop keeping a transient in to get that click on purpose (makes drums more audible on laptop speakers/iphones, for one). anyway, i would be driven nuts if there was an automatic amp curve added, and i would be manually undoing them and i can see why that would be annoying, so i think there should be a toggle in chop mode, and projects should default to that toggle setting when importing projects from previous mpcs.

as a side note, on other forums/reddit you see people asking why some of their kick drum samples don't hit as hard in other DAWs, sometimes at random, that's because those DAWs (ableton off the top of my head, maybe fl) default to a soft envelope with a small attack on samples, and people have to undo that default behavior if they want their drums to bang. so you can see it's an issue that with one setting users can get clicks on their chops, on the other setting the drums don't bang as hard, so it's a matter of understanding how ADSR settings work and applying it as each case requires it.

From the few posts I've read of those experiencing this issue you may be having problems with DC offset in your samples.

Obviously first double check that when you're editing your samples you have the "0 snap" active (snap to zero). If the chops are happening off of zero you're going to get clicks.

Assuming this is already being done (it's the default setting) then you may be experiencing DC offset. It happens when DC current (from a soundcard or other source) gets mixed in with the audio recording. It makes it so that your waveform does not cycle around zero, so even if you try and cut at a zero crossing it can cause artifacts in the audio.

You can try re-recording your audio through a HP filter, maybe just try resampling with a HP filter. After that see if you can chop without artifacts.

If you want to be sure whether or not it's actually DC offset, record the sample and move it into an audio editor (sound forge, audacity, wavelab) and remove the DC offset there. Each of those programs has a "remove DC offset function". You can also measure the "mean amplitude" and if it equals zero then there is no DC offset.

After "removing the DC offset" move the sample back into the Ren and see if chopping it still causes artifacts.... if it does... then it's something else

Otherwise you're dealing with DC offset and it would be great if they could add that as a sample editing option in the MPC software.
I do a fair amount of sampling and chopping and have been fortunate to not have experienced this yet.

But are you running a Mac or PC?

Eyalc wrote:Just for sake of another instance of this popping happening...

I do most of my work on a 5000. Do some chopping... sometimes intricate, sometimes not. But never hear the pops on the 5000.

I always transfer my 5000 projects to the MPC software for exporting wavs to my DAW. When I play the project in the MPC software, I hear the pops when one sample cuts another one off. And I'm using the same monitors to listen to both. At first when I heard pops I thought I was nuts for chopping so sloppy in the 5000 and missing it, so went back and played the project in the 5000... didn't hear the pops there.

It almost seems like previous MPC models compensated with a slight fade in / out when samples begin / end, but the MPC software doesn't do the same.

The only way I could get rid of the pops is to go through each sample in the MPC software, and do a manual fade in between 0 and 100 (sample start and sample end points). If the pop happens at the end I'll have to do it there too. Though for me I usually notice it at the beginning of each sample.

Not adding to a solution, just adding another perspective. Thought this was just because of the way my workflow is. Interesting that others are experiencing the same.

I have both, but I'm mostly running on a Mac OS 10.8
BTW, just saying I haven't had the issue.

Airyck wrote:I have both, but I'm mostly running on a Mac OS 10.8
BTW, just saying I haven't had the issue.

Exactly why I keep mentioning it.
People need to clarify what they are running and try to find the common aspect of those having the problem.

Instead they are acting like everyone has the problem which doesn't help with getting the problem resolved.

Found this answer on Akai's forum. If anyone tries this and starts having success with eliminating pops, let me know:




Thanks for posting. I'd be happy to help!

This is the sampling concept known as Zero Crossing. Essentially the loop/slice beginning and/or end point happens while the waveform is not centered at a value of zero. The computer then "clips" the audio. It's forced to draw the waveform with a straight line down or up, which is physically/acoustically impossible (your speaker can't go from one point to another in zero time). The result is a pop/click.



Sometimes it's unavoidable, like with most stereo samples. You might zoom in on your stereo sample a put your slice exactly at zero crossing for the left channel, but now your right channel is not aligned and is going to click. Now you've got to spend hours searching and hoping you find a point where both channels align (get some popcorn). Sometimes the best resolution is actually what you're already doing; change the envelope decay or fade the start/end points.



With the Ren, using the software's sample edit view in Chop mode, zoom in as far as you can. Now click and drag the slice point and you'll notice it's not smooth; even when you've zoomed down all the way it still "jumps" to different points of the waveform. Basically, the software is making the best guess as to where the zero crossing is but also where the beginning of the hit is. This is why you've noticed it to different degrees on different machines; they're different algorithms doing the guessing. Just turn "Snap to Zero" OFF and you'll be able to tweak yourself.

Multi-sampling pitched instruments is even tougher. I multi-sampled a Moog Rogue recently and it was a real challenge finding not only zero crossing, but two zero crossing points to make a seemless loop (for sustained notes). Some sample loop points I had no choice but to insert a quick little fade or crossfade.

Sometimes, especially with stereo samples, that's the only solution. I actually kind of like that sound; like when you hear the snare from an old drum loop that has some reverb/ambience, and you can hear that kind of unnatural cutoff... it has some character.

In the end, I understand and agree that it's a pain spending time editing samples on that level. Just in regards to workflow, sometimes you find a good sample and just want to PLAY your kit, not make it. I know you're probably familiar with what I discussed above, but feel free to discuss. We might come up with some new features ideas to make making music easier!

THE ADVERSARY wrote:

Airyck wrote:I have both, but I'm mostly running on a Mac OS 10.8
BTW, just saying I haven't had the issue.

Exactly why I keep mentioning it.
People need to clarify what they are running and try to find the common aspect of those having the problem.

Instead they are acting like everyone has the problem which doesn't help with getting the problem resolved.

I agree if you're trying to determine if it's a Mac or PC specific problem but I don't think that it's the only possible problem. The idea of successful troubleshooting would be to put out all possible causes of the problem and then eliminate each one systematically until you find the culprit.

DC offset is a very likely problem based on the description people are giving and it's actually quite common when recording audio. I'm putting that out there so we can make an attempt to see if it's causing the issue or not.
If there is clicking/popping when you've located a "zero" crossing it's highly likely that there is an issue with sample not having a proper zero, hence the idea that DC offset could be the issue.

I had the popping in windows 8.1 on the PC side but it was only because of the USB 3.0 issue. I have use some of the worst samples on the planet and they sound like new using USB 2.0... no snap, crackle, and pop ...what so ever.

THE ADVERSARY wrote:But are you running a Mac or PC?

Mac.

Airyck wrote:
DC offset is a very likely problem based on the description people are giving and it's actually quite common when recording audio. I'm putting that out there so we can make an attempt to see if it's causing the issue or not.
If there is clicking/popping when you've located a "zero" crossing it's highly likely that there is an issue with sample not having a proper zero, hence the idea that DC offset could be the issue.

unfortunately the people with the problem have too much consistency for it to be DC Offset.

So the akai guys says we can turn "snap to zero" off in sample edit mode and we'll have more luck finding a point that doesn't pop. Anyone try this yet with their stuff? Larry B? I'm away from my ren for another week, so i can't test this yet. Fingers crossed though...