Discuss the various methods you use in music production, from compressor settings to equipment type.
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By fdodds Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:44 am
i've never used any vintage mpc, my only experience is on friends's mpc 1000/500 and i have a ren now but that's different. i was just going by the test stuff posted earlier :P
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By SimonInAustralia Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:47 am
Chillin wrote:Swing in a real drum world it's considered an off beat note. Swing in a virtual drum world is an event, measured by shift in percentages off from the grid where the original note hits.

:hmmm: Yeah, they are the same thing as each other.

Shifting off the grid from where the original note hits = off beat note.
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By THE ADVERSARY Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:03 pm
fdodds wrote:there's nothing conflicting about what everyone's talking about here... swing calculations would stay the same model to model, but sequencer accuracy was worse on the mpc - 60 with larger possible discrepancies between the perfect as written rhythm and the actual execution of those sequences... so we have a machine that has swing that feels different, in reality it's probably just always slightly losing sync and then catching back up due to early design, as design, software and hardware improves the mpc's get tighter and start actually playing back sequences perfect to the grid, and now i guess swing doesn't feel as loose as it did because it's actually being executed perfectly, so you'll have to nudge events to create that same looseness


It's not the same on various MPCs, not sure where this assumption comes from.
Also sync has nothing to do with it it's comes down to;
-the rate the notes are input into the sequencer
-the sequencers interpretation of that data
-the sequencers trigger of those note
-the processor handling these factors

All MPCs are trying to accomplish the same results but require different means based on their available feature set.

Akai is constantly modifying and tweaking the math in the MPC line.
Sometimes for the better sometimes maybe not.
The 5k seems somewhat clunky because they added the strength parameters.
The Renn has the strength functions but it does seem to affect the sequencer negatively like the 5k.
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By SimonInAustralia Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:02 pm
THE ADVERSARY wrote:It's not the same on various MPCs, not sure where this assumption comes from.

So the swing calculation moves the events to different sequencer locations, on different MPC models, when using exactly the same swing settings?
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By SimonInAustralia Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:06 pm
Bus wrote:Performed the test below using the MPC Software 1.6 Sequencer:
http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... 0Midi.html

I was wondering more about exactly what was going on in each of your tests, you have three different results.

First one looks like maybe MPC Software internal sequencer, with sequencer events triggering the internal MPC Software sample engine. Is that what you did, and how did you record the output to test it?

What are the other two tests doing?
By Chillin Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:07 pm
SimonInAustralia wrote:
THE ADVERSARY wrote:It's not the same on various MPCs, not sure where this assumption comes from.

So the swing calculation moves the events to different sequencer locations, on different MPC models, when using exactly the same swing settings?




I don't think that visibly/ physically we will see any differences of these events. They probably will hit the same locations, when being moved in the same percentages. Yet, many people claim to experience a difference. And that is what makes it so odd, because theoretically there is/ or should no difference.
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By Bus Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:58 pm
SimonInAustralia wrote:
Bus wrote:Performed the test below using the MPC Software 1.6 Sequencer:
http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... 0Midi.html

I was wondering more about exactly what was going on in each of your tests, you have three different results.

First one looks like maybe MPC Software internal sequencer, with sequencer events triggering the internal MPC Software sample engine. Is that what you did, and how did you record the output to test it?

What are the other two tests doing?


The procedure, how it was recorded, and what it measures is outlined below and at this link: http://www.innerclocksystems.com/New%20 ... 0Midi.html

The results are provided for informational purposes only since the MPC Software wasn't listed on that website. Hopefully the information can be used to further the discussion of Sync and MIDI Timing in the other thread.

"Litmus Test - def: any kind of indicator used to classify something either favourably or unfavourably"

Many hardware sequencers and drum machines generate Midi Notes.

In this variation of the Original Litmus timing test we measure continuous outgoing 16th Note Midi Event tempo stability.

At a tempo of 120 BPM there should be exactly 6000 samples @ 48kHz between any two consecutive 16th Midi Note events.

For these tests we use only a single track of Midi Note On events only. No Control, Sysex, Aftertouch, Pressure, MTC or Midi Clock messages are present.
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By SimonInAustralia Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:55 pm
Chillin wrote:I don't think that visibly/ physically we will see any differences of these events. They probably will hit the same locations, when being moved in the same percentages. Yet, many people claim to experience a difference. And that is what makes it so odd, because theoretically there is/ or should no difference.

'If' the swing calculation moves the events to the same locations on difference MPC models, then the difference would be in the sequencer timing between models.

Where each MPC model moves events to with their swing calculations doesn't seem to have been thoroughly tested and compared, as yet.

He seems to suggest that there is a difference between where events are moved to by swing in the different MPC models.

I am wondering what he is basing this on, maybe he has tested and compared it?
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By JBM Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:13 pm

I like his simplified approach to Swing on MPC 60.
I don't use Swing or Shift timing(earlier or later)

How often do you get a funky swing to your beats using this feature?

What songs, beats, or instrumentals should I reference to get a better understanding of why this is so important to use with the MPC?

Personally it's just easier for me to use time correction off lay down my groove and use step edit adjust the placement of the sound where it sounds good to me.

@chillin In the Comments TheRealSonDu mentions he's part of the MPC Ren beta testing so if you are truly on the hunt for getting the MPC4000 real time swing feature into MPC Ren Os software. He or Sounds for samplers maybe able to help you get this accomplished considering they both have experience and invested time in Swing features on previous MPCs.

I know beta testers are just testers and are told what to test. It's appears that some beta testers are slowly earning the trust of Akai to take in recommendation for improving the OS. Good Luck
By Chillin Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:46 pm
SimonInAustralia wrote:
Chillin wrote:I don't think that visibly/ physically we will see any differences of these events. They probably will hit the same locations, when being moved in the same percentages. Yet, many people claim to experience a difference. And that is what makes it so odd, because theoretically there is/ or should no difference.

'If' the swing calculation moves the events to the same locations on difference MPC models, then the difference would be in the sequencer timing between models.

Where each MPC model moves events to with their swing calculations doesn't seem to have been thoroughly tested and compared, as yet.

He seems to suggest that there is a difference between where events are moved to by swing in the different MPC models.

I am wondering what he is basing this on, maybe he has tested and compared it?


I see, but isn't the time length of the sequencer in each MPC model is suppose to be equal?


What could make the sequencer timing longer or shorter?
By Chillin Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:47 pm
In my quest...I found this page.



Think there's a difference in the versions of the MPC? Here's a note from one of the experts:

http://www.mpc2000xl.com/mpc_timing.htm


Someone wrote in repsonse to my "no one's going to tell what sequencer you are using":

> Obviously it's true that in the end result no one will be able to tell what sequencer you used, but YOU'LL certainly be able to tell while you're using it. Different sequencers do have a different feel, not so much in "sloppiness", but in how they record your playing with different "swing" settings.

Sevo replied:

There is no "swing" magic in any MPC. Timing-wise, there is no difference between the 2000 and 60/3000 other than the 60/3000 have twice the MIDI outs and hence, less likelyhood MIDI jams. All MPCs are solid 96ppqn MIDI sequencers (as tight as MIDI can be, which is not that much anyway) with a absolutely tight internal drum sequencer with zero delay between multiple simultaneous instruments. There is no particular groove magic going on in any MPC - the swing and note shift features are static, faultless and perform no more magic than their counterparts on any mid-eighties software sequencer. If you are looking for advanced shuffle and humanize functions, you'll have to switch off quantizing and play them by hand - or use a big software sequencer and suffer its sloppy MIDI timing.

Someone also said:

> This isn't too important in electronic dance music where you don't really use a swing setting at all, but for other forms - particularly R&B - it can make a huge difference to the composer. I know for a fact that my Linn 9000 has a different swing feel to any software sequencer I've used, and that's why I still use it today.

Sevo states:

The Linn 9000 has no swing magic either! If you are hearing a difference, it will be the higher mechanical precision rather than any artificial human sloppyness - humanizers are the domain of software sequencers. Or rather were - humanizers (which were the most advertized feature in the early days of Cubase and Logic) seem to be unpopular nowadays, and aren't mentioned at all in current software sequencer publicity. The Linn and MPC have realtime OSes, fully integrated sound generators, and a far, far better timing than software sequencers - even more so as the software sequencers have to pump their data through MIDI, which can't handle two events at once. But they are precise rather than magic. Try it, and plug your Linn into a harddisk recorder and count out the samples between beats - you'll see that the beats are dead on whatever grid you programmed or played rather than performing any swing of their own...

Someone also blurbed:

> I mean, if you play the same pattern using Logic to control a JP-8000 that play using an ARP sequencer to control a 2600 the listener won't care, but the composer will definitely find a difference in how they work.

Sevo's final word:

Different issue - ergonomics and conceptual models certainly shape the way you work. But that will alter the beat you write rather than its timing.

Sevo -- Sevo Stille
By Chillin Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:52 pm
JBM wrote:

I like his simplified approach to Swing on MPC 60.
I don't use Swing or Shift timing(earlier or later)

How often do you get a funky swing to your beats using this feature?

What songs, beats, or instrumentals should I reference to get a better understanding of why this is so important to use with the MPC?

Personally it's just easier for me to use time correction off lay down my groove and use step edit adjust the placement of the sound where it sounds good to me.

@chillin In the Comments TheRealSonDu mentions he's part of the MPC Ren beta testing so if you are truly on the hunt for getting the MPC4000 real time swing feature into MPC Ren Os software. He or Sounds for samplers maybe able to help you get this accomplished considering they both have experience and invested time in Swing features on previous MPCs.

I know beta testers are just testers and are told what to test. It's appears that some beta testers are slowly earning the trust of Akai to take in recommendation for improving the OS. Good Luck



Thanks for your response and recommendation. I have used the video by Sounds For Samplers as an example, when I approached Akai, on the Akai forum, considering this topic. And yes, I have seen the vid by this guy before on the MPC-60. The peculiar things is; according to "many people", that when you apply similar percentages on another MPC model, the affect effectively somehow sounds different.


If you need a beat to explain the time signatures of swing, you best go with "Funky Drummer".


Relevant code:

Code: Select all[code lang="cpp"]
void VoiceController::UpdateArpeggiatorParameters(const Patch& patch) {
tempo_ = patch.arp_tempo;
pattern_ = ResourcesManager::Lookup(
lut_res_arpeggiator_patterns, patch.arp_pattern >> 2);
mode_ = patch.arp_pattern & 0x03;
direction_ = mode_ == ARPEGGIO_DIRECTION_DOWN ? -1 : 1;
octaves_ = patch.arp_octave;
pattern_size_ = patch.pattern_size;
step_duration_[0] = (kSampleRate * 60L / 4) / static_cast(
tempo_ > 9;
step_duration_[0] += swing;
step_duration_[1] -= swing;
}



Also I found this which is an interesting read:

http://www.numericalsound.com/documents ... manual.pdf
Last edited by Chillin on Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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By SimonInAustralia Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:57 pm
Chillin wrote:Think there's a difference in the versions of the MPC? Here's a note from one of the experts:


http://www.mpc2000xl.com/mpc_timing.htm

...

All MPCs are solid 96ppqn MIDI sequencers (as tight as MIDI can be, which is not that much anyway) with a absolutely tight internal drum sequencer with zero delay between multiple simultaneous instruments.

That seems to be incorrect, even though it is from someone they think is an 'expert'.

The internal drum sequencer seems to be sending a normal serial MIDI data stream internally to the internal drum sample engine.

In the case of the MPC3000, there is not a 'zero delay between multiple simultaneous instruments', there is a delay between multiple simultaneous instruments, which is most likely caused by a serial MIDI data signal being used internally, just as it is externally.

Although it is not totally clear if the delay between multiple simultaneous events is caused by the serial nature of the MIDI signal, or something to do with how the MPC splits the sounds out the individual outputs, the timing delays seem to fit with what you would expect from MIDI...

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=165399
jeremiah wrote:...in trouble.

It is my heart - of the studio - my Akai MPC 3000LE V3.11

I own this beauty for 10+y.
I found out that the outputs behave very strange.

Scenario:
I put the same sound on 8 different pads, and play out on Outputs 1-8
record 8 straight tracks 1-2-3-4, straight Q
Audiointerface In (Lynx) 1-8 is connected to all MPC Outputs 1-8.
Normally each sound should be played out at the same position.
But not mine.
Output 1 seems to be on the grid, but then 2-8 seem to be late and later.
Output 2 is 70samples late
Output 3 is 138s late
Output 4 is 213s late and so on
Output 8 is 493s late
looks like every single output sends about 70samples later than the previous.

(On top of that-Output 7 delivers a distorted snd.)

I did a lil research, but could not find anything.

Not sure if it is a hardware (Outputboard) problem as "the delay" occurs quite constantly.
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By JBM Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:52 pm
Chillin wrote:If you need a beat to explain the time signatures of swing, you best go with "Funky Drummer".


What version of the "Funky Drummer" beat that was programmed on a MPC using swing or shift timing are you referring me to checkout?
The link you posted was broken.