Timing and Swing

Discuss the various methods you use in music production, from compressor settings to equipment type.
 Topic locked Share on Facebook
User avatar

Re: Timing and Swing

By Lampdog Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:23 am
I like his simplified approach to Swing on MPC 60.

He "splitches" like a mofo, can't deal. widdit.
User avatar

Re: Timing and Swing

By JBM Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:06 am
Lampdog wrote:I like his simplified approach to Swing on MPC 60.

He "splitches" like a mofo, can't deal. widdit.


That's the circa 2010 swing "splitches" filter setting on his camera. lol
User avatar

Re: Timing and Swing

By Lampdog Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:10 pm
Crazy that before a few months ago when someone here pointed that out I never even noticed it when conversing with dudez/womenz.

Now, NOW, I hear it every time someone opens their fkn mouth and I can't stand it!
I really was trying to watch the vid but it finally got to me and I ran away, lol.

Thanks alot, whoever it was here on the forums that got me to noticing that shit and even gave it a name. fkr.

:lol:

Re: Timing and Swing

By dazastah Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:40 pm
Chillin wrote:All MPCs are solid 96ppqn MIDI sequencers (as tight as MIDI can be, which is not that much anyway) with a absolutely tight internal drum sequencer with zero delay between multiple simultaneous instruments


I'd disagree with that... The part where he says zero delay between multiple simultaneous instruments... On the part that i've compared 5 mpcs.. mpc2000xl mpc1k mpc2.5k mpc5k. and ren.. The test is a simple one.. Involving one pad with layers... like two kick samples .. On all hardware mpcs when hitting the pad(or sequencing it), the two kicks drift against each other, causing a flamming effect(very slight but you can hear it as it effects the punch and frequency/phase of the kick drums) to get around this i'd resample it and pick the best one... It's infact the opposite way around when it comes to software internal midi..(midi events that live inside the box and trigger software instruments/samplers)
when doing this with the ren, it's a perfect locked hit everytime... Sequencing your hardware sampler with the ren wouldn't change anything because when the midi leaves software into the hardware world, i'd suspect it goes back to the serial limitation that simon mentions..

Re: Timing and Swing

By Chillin Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:39 pm
JBM wrote:
Chillin wrote:If you need a beat to explain the time signatures of swing, you best go with "Funky Drummer".


What version of the "Funky Drummer" beat that was programmed on a MPC using swing or shift timing are you referring me to checkout?
The link you posted was broken.



Do you mean the link "DNA Groove Template Collections"? That one worked perfectly fine, when I click on it. And I've tested it on different divides as well.


When you mentioned:"How often do you get a funky swing to your beats using this feature?

What songs, beats, or instrumentals should I reference to get a better understanding of why this is so important to use with the MPC?"


I was under the assumption that you meant a song as example using swing. Therefore I suggested Funky Drummer, because this was basically the first break beat clearly drummed with intentional swing in it. The drummer, Clyde Stubblefield, used ghost notes in the hi hat and snare to create that feel. Different versions of Funky Drummer have this feel, but in particular the Jungle Groove. Of course in the sub genre "Jazz Swing hence", the name, it existed already as a concept. However, in Hip Hop Funky Drummer is probably the most sampled and looped breakbeat ever. Especially during the late 80s and early to mid 90s. It is most likely they used the MPC, if not the SP.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funky_Drummer










To answer your final question. If one likes to recreate breakbeats, swing is of utmost important. To compose as a real drummer would drum that beat with off notes. And there are other genres of music like House, Drum N Bass, who use this swing feature a lot.

Here is an example by Afronaught, in the sub-genre Broken Beat.






Here is another example by Dj Spinna on Roy Ayes remix; Holiday.


User avatar

Re: Timing and Swing

By SimonInAustralia Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:54 pm
Might also be worth testing if/how the timing on various MPC models changes when synced to incoming MIDI Beat Clock.

MIDI Beat Clock is 24 ppqn, how do the various MPC models handle their timing when locked to a 24 ppqn clock, does everything get shifted to a 24 ppqn grid, thereby changing the timing?
User avatar

Re: Timing and Swing

By Bus Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:03 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_beat_clock

Because of limitations in MIDI and synthesizers, devices driven by MIDI beatclock are often subject to clock drift. For this reason, it is a common practice on equipment that supports another clock source such as ADAT or wordclock to use both that source and MIDI beatclock.
User avatar

Re: The Official 'Waiting for the 1.7 Update' Topic

By Bus Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:17 am
SimonInAustralia wrote:Where each MPC model moves events to with their swing calculations doesn't seem to have been thoroughly tested and compared, as yet.

He seems to suggest that there is a difference between where events are moved to by swing in the different MPC models.


a. Record 2 Bars of 1/16th notes in the MPC 4000 and MPC Renaissance software
b. Set each MPC to the same timing and swing settings and compare

Results - Notes are shifted to identical locations
User avatar

Re: Timing and Swing

By SimonInAustralia Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:21 am
Bus wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_beat_clock

Because of limitations in MIDI and synthesizers, devices driven by MIDI beatclock are often subject to clock drift. For this reason, it is a common practice on equipment that supports another clock source such as ADAT or wordclock to use both that source and MIDI beatclock.

Nah Jerome, I am talking about the MPC 'possibly' moving events from a 96ppqn or 960ppqn grid onto a MIDI Beat Clock 24ppqn grid, when synced to incoming MIDI Beat Clock, which 'if' it happens, would mess up the sequencer timing.

This would be especially noticeable with swung events (or events entered when Timing Correct is off), as they would be more likely to be off that 24ppqn grid in the first place, as opposed to anything on a straight/non-swung Timing Correct grid.

This would not be noticeable with the standard litmus test, since each event falls on the 1/16 grid, which would place them in positions compatible with the MIDI Beat Clock 24ppqn resolution, and they would not be moved when the MPC is synced to MIDI Beat Clock.
User avatar

Re: The Official 'Waiting for the 1.7 Update' Topic

By SimonInAustralia Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:29 am
Bus wrote:a. Record 2 Bars of 1/16th notes in the MPC 4000 and MPC Renaissance software
b. Set each MPC to the same timing and swing settings and compare

Results - Notes are shifted to identical locations

Still have your MPC4000 Jerome? :lol:

Some seem to think that the same swing settings in the different MPC models moves events to different sequencer locations.

Testing it on various different MPC models, with the same swing settings, and providing the results for comparison, as you did in that earlier thread linked to above for one MPC model, would provide proof.

The events will be moved to slightly different locations in an MPC that runs at 960ppqn, versus 96ppqn, due to the higher sequencer resolution.

This would mean that when swung on an MPC with 96ppqn, you might get successive Swing amounts moving the events to exactly the same locations, if the swing calculation places the events in between the 96ppqn grid, whereby the same settings in an MPC with 960ppqn might place those successive Swing amounts in different locations, due to the higher ppqn resolution.

The MPC Renaissance and MPC4000 both run at 960ppqn, so in your comparison above they should place the swung events in the exact same locations, if the swing calculations are exactly the same, but some will be in slightly different locations if the same swing settings are used on an MPC with 96ppqn resolution.
User avatar

Re: Timing and Swing

By Bus Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:05 am
For information purposes only, I compared the the MPC Renaissance and MPC4000. Swung events are placed in the exact same locations since they both run at 960ppqn which is what I suspected.

It is likely that MPCs that run at 96ppqn are the same across the board. I don't have access to these MPCs to test my hypothesis. Everyone I know have stopped using MPCs.

My name is not Jerome.
User avatar

Re: Timing and Swing

By SimonInAustralia Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:54 am
Bus wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_beat_clock

Because of limitations in MIDI and synthesizers, devices driven by MIDI beatclock are often subject to clock drift. For this reason, it is a common practice on equipment that supports another clock source such as ADAT or wordclock to use both that source and MIDI beatclock.

I don't think that is correct, and that whoever wrote it doesn't really understand.

That applies to MIDI Time Code, not MIDI Beat Clock.

Do you have any links to a more technical source of that sort of information than Wikipedia?
User avatar

Re: Timing and Swing

By Bus Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:41 am
SimonInAustralia wrote:I don't think that is correct, and that whoever wrote it doesn't really understand.

That applies to MIDI Time Code, not MIDI Beat Clock.

Do you have any links to a more technical source of that sort of information than Wikipedia?


Since you wrote that you don't think it is correct, can you provide some sources for your information?

Likewise, I will look at additional sources as I have several books that may or may not shed light on the subject.

Info only. This site recommends to use MTC for sync'ing two sequencers: http://tweakheadz.com/sync-mmc-mtc-smpte/
User avatar

Re: Timing and Swing

By SimonInAustralia Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:53 am
No, I can't find anything that shows it is incorrect, or correct, because it is incorrect, so there is no information that I can find in a quick search to support, or refute, what you quoted from Wikipedia.

The person writing it has mixed up MIDI Beat Clock and MIDI Time Code.

MTC needs to have the word clocks of interconnected devices synced, so that once something is triggered in the slave device, at a particular time, based on the incoming MTC from the master, both devices playback at exactly the same speed, resolved to the same timebase/samplerate.

If the MTC slave timebase is not resolved to the MTC master timebase, then there are two possibilities, either they both playback at their own internal timebase/samplerate, after the initial sync trigger point, which leads to slight drift between the devices, or the slave device has to resolve it's timebase to the incoming MTC, which would cause the samplerate to shift around constantly, and take a lot of resources to continually change the samplerate to match the incoming MTC.
Last edited by SimonInAustralia on Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar

Re: Timing and Swing

By SimonInAustralia Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:59 am
http://www.motu.com/techsupport/technotes/slaving-audio-to-smpte/

Slaving Audio to SMPTE


Why is my audio drifting when I slave the audio in my computer to SMPTE? (Why does my audio drift?)

Whenever slaving audio in the computer to an external source such as SMPTE, you must have Word Clock (Time Base) as well as address (SMPTE or MTC). The Word Clock tells the audio in the computer exactly how fast to go. Without Word Clock, the rate of the audio in the computer will never match the speed of the audio outside of the computer. The symptom would be that your audio will drift over a period of time.

The solution is to use an MTP AV or a device such as a BRC. The MTP AV will convert the incoming LTC (or SMPTE) and generate MTC (the Address) for the computer as well generate Word Clock (the Time Base) for your Audio Hardware. If you have Audio Hardware with a Word Clock input (to connect the Word Clock to) such as MOTU Audio Hardware, then the Word Clock will keep the audio in the computer running at the same rate as your external audio for phase accurate sync.

Note: Some software programs offer a feature that may be called "Sync Audio to Time Code". While this featue may work for short sound files it is not the proper solution. This method works be actually pushing or pulling the audio according to the incoming address since it has no Word Clock as a reference. This method could also cause artifacts in audio playback.

For further information you may want read the tech note titled Word Clock. Also, if you use a MOTU FireWire audio interface or a MOTU PCI-424 system, check out the tech note titled Slaving directly to SMPTE.
 Topic locked
Return to Production Techniques