Logic X and MPC 2k MIDI Sync - Recording loops vs. Full beat

I'll preface this by saying that when I want to record a live beat from the MPC and do changes on the fly from within the MPC I have no problem whatsoever.

But in some cases I would like to just record each phrase one time and lay out the form of my beats in logic. I notice though that when tracking each track individually (ie. Hi Hats on track 1, Snare on track 2, Kick on track 3, etc.) when I play back my 8 bar loop I have an issue with not everything landing on the downbeat at the same time. I mean I know the MPC swings but goddamn. It shouldn't matter whether I quantize or not anyway. The full phrase one time all the way through at a specific BPM should come back together on the one, but it isn't happening. Any insight into this and whether I can make any adjustments to resolve this? Thanks a bunch.

midi or sampled sound?
you do not really say but i gather that it is sound recordings? have you got it midi synced at all? and when you say tracking you mean one track at a time with different passes or all at once?

Are you using the 8 output expansion to track out?

I am using MIDI Sync. When I press PLAY in Logic X it tells the MPC 2000 to play and plays back at Logic's tempo. Midi Out from Logic, Midi In to MPC. I'm tracking my tracks one at a time. In the MPC I put Sample in its own track, HiHat in it's own track, etc. So when recording, I solo each track and record them into Logic one at a time, and make a new track in Logic for each track in the MPC. I begin recording from the same downbeat each time. Yet, when I select a loop region in Logic of say 4 or 8 or 16 bars, it's not a tight loop. At this point I scrolled to the downbeat, top of the phrase, and zoomed in to look at the wave forms. Apparently, my kick isn't recording in exactly on the downbeat, neither is my HI-Hat, and from what I can see, none of the tracks are actually beginning on the downbeat, even though they are programmed in the MPC on the downbeat. So when the phrase is played back in Logic the timing is wrong.

I do have the 8 outs but I'm not sure how to utilize it. I can probably pull together enough cables to use about 4 outs. But as far as simultaneous tracking I don't exactly know the best way to set that up. Does my mixer need firewire?

well yeah you might need it if you are using it as you sound interface with your computer and DAW, and if this allows you to multitrack then it is worth looking at.

There can be all sorts of things going here. Computer might just be a few milliseconds out every time from lag on the USB doing its thing before it gets to midi. Could be jitter to but not as likely, and also the MPC itself might lag a few samples everytime to. All adds to out of time, and that is why multitrack recording has an advantage over many passes that are all out of time

You could try add a count in so they have time to settle before they punch in at the start. You just have to adjust the tracks so they align as intended. You should be checking that on everything you record out of habit anyways imho.

Also try it with logic slaved to the tempo of the MPC and haev the MPC as the master clock and see if you get it tighter that way. chick in the count in to and see if its a closer.

Am I assuming you are sidestepping the MPCs internal sewuencer as well and using logic to sequence. That probably wont help matters. I would record the sequence in the MPC, just hit record when playing, and then send that out. It would make the data conversions much less, you just side stepped the USB midi interface this way and that will improve latency if its worse than that MPCs.

...for tracking out one AFTER the other, you need a pretty tight interface.....
...and a stable clock as helll.....which is not really existing....

to be honest........the first time i experienced this tight enough, after twenty years of tracking out, was two years ago when i switched to metric halo interfaces....

one sample latency in...one out......so i really just deal with logics roundtrip latency only, which works fine though......anything else was pretty useless, if it comes to catch the microtiming of a mpc in recordings for sure....

so what you experience is your sluggish midi clock over a swimming asio or whatsoever driver......

only way around it is, tracking out in one rush a simple pre song arrangement from the mpc on separated single outs.....in best case, without!!!! a sync clock but some metronome clicks at the beginning and the end of that little song arrangement.....

then you can easily detect the overall tempo afterwards in your sequencer and get the slices you want to rearrange on grid.....

Ron-Jay wrote:
I do have the 8 outs but I'm not sure how to utilize it.

If you're serious, and do a lot of tracking out, use those bad boys.

You dont need a firewire mixer, you do need an audio interface with at least 8 audio inputs. This can be USB or Firewire based, given the choice I'd pick Firewire for its increased audio bandwidth improved reliability.

http://support.presonus.com/entries/213 ... interface-

Q: Should I choose a FireWire or USB audio interface?

A: Most audio interfaces today communicate with your computer either though a FireWire connection or a USB connection. Before purchasing an audio interface, the first step is to ascertain what type of communications your computer supports. Almost all modern computers feature at least two USB ports; however, FireWire is somewhat more limited to the pro audio and video environment, and many budget PCs will not support FireWire out-of-the-box. Despite this, most computers can be upgraded to obtain FireWire functionality at minimal cost.


The Pros and Cons of FireWire vs USB



FireWire has long been a standard for both audio and video interfacing. Below are some of the common pros and cons for using a device with FireWire:
Pros

In general, FireWire devices support a higher bandwidth than USB 2.0, and therefore can send more data faster. This results in the ability to utilize more inputs and outputs, as well as increased performance and stability. This practically would apply only to interfaces with large numbers of inputs and outputs; the difference in performance between a single or dual-channel USB or FireWire interface should be negligible.
FireWire streams data rather than packets data. This results in more stable synchronization and performance. A FireWire device can stream data in both directions at the same time, while USB requires the sent packets of data to finish transmission before the device can receive more data. While seemingly a minor technical detail, this can impact performance and stability to some degree.
FireWire is typically dedicated for audio/video purposes, and wouldn't be in use by other services on your computer. Your system will most likely have a single controller for FireWire that shouldn't receive interference from other services or hardware on your system in a normal situation. Conversely, USB is used by a wide variety of hardware peripherals, resulting in an increase in the chance that a conflict could occur.
FireWire devices have the ability to cascade or daisy-chain. This means multiple FireWire devices of the same family can be connected together for additional inputs and outputs. For instance, you can connect two PreSonus FireStudio Projects together for a total of 20 inputs and 20 outputs. USB devices cannot be connected together in this fashion.

Cons

USB devices can be used on almost any computer, because almost all computers contain USB ports. Conversely, most modern PCs do not have FireWire ports built-in. One can usually upgrade their computer to support FireWire, but this would require purchasing additional hardware.
There is no form of chipset incompatibility with USB devices. A USB 2.0 interface can be used on almost any USB 2.0 port; however, with FireWire, one must have a supported chipset in order to utilize the device properly. For more information about supported and unsupported hardware, check out this document.

*Certain new computers utilize newer USB technology known as "USB 3.0"; PreSonus USB 2.0 audio interfaces should work with 3.0 provided that you are using an operating system that fully supports the 3.0 architecture, and that you have updated your USB 3.0 drivers.

USB devices typically are at a lower price point than FireWire devices, so they may be more attractive to users on a budget.
Certain computers can not be upgraded to support FireWire. If your computer is a laptop and does not have a Cardbus, PCMCIA, or ExpressCard slot, there is no way to add FireWire to the system. If your computer is a desktop but does not have any available PCI or PCI Express slots, you would not be able to add FireWire without removing another device.

Ron-Jay wrote:I'll preface this by saying that when I want to record a live beat from the MPC and do changes on the fly from within the MPC I have no problem whatsoever.

But in some cases I would like to just record each phrase one time and lay out the form of my beats in logic. I notice though that when tracking each track individually (ie. Hi Hats on track 1, Snare on track 2, Kick on track 3, etc.) when I play back my 8 bar loop I have an issue with not everything landing on the downbeat at the same time. I mean I know the MPC swings but goddamn. It shouldn't matter whether I quantize or not anyway. The full phrase one time all the way through at a specific BPM should come back together on the one, but it isn't happening. Any insight into this and whether I can make any adjustments to resolve this? Thanks a bunch.

For the best sync between 2 sequencers, I suggest:

a. Power conditioner. The power coming out of your household sockets are likely 'dirty'. Connect your computer, MPC, and other equipment to a power conditioner (not surge protector). I recommend a Furman power conditioner.

b. MIDI cables. Use the shortest MIDI cables possible

c. Time-based vs Tempo-based sync. Use time-based sync (MTC) as opposed to tempo-based sync (MIDI Clock).

MIDI Clock will ensure both devices play at the same tempo. But an error in MIDI can cause the sequencers to lose sync. So when one sequencer is at time position 08:01:00 the other can be at 08:01:01 yet still play at the same tempo. Overtime the sequencers can slowly drift apart.

MTC locks the sequencers using absolute time. If both sequencers start at 01:01:00 they will remain locked. If an error occurs that causes the sequencers to lose sync, this will only be momentarily. The next time a good pulse sync is received, the slave device will lock to the current time position of the master.

d. Master/Slave. Whenever possible, the Master device should be the slowest in your MIDI chain. Today's computers are likely to be much faster than your MPC. So I would use the MPC as the Master and your DAW as the slave if supported.

e. MIDI Ports. Use a dedicated MIDI port for your sync. If you are using MIDI Out B of your MPC, do not use this port to send any other MIDI data. Likewise, I would dedicate a MIDI Input for your DAW (via your MIDI interface); don't send anything else to this input port.

These suggestions should give you best sync between a DAW and your MPC.

Don't go out an buy a power conditioners, or short MIDI cables, just to sync your MPC to your computer, that is BS, totally unecessesary.

And if MIDI Beat Clock works for you, with your workflow, use it, MIDI Clock messages don't just go missing in the real world.

MTC only locks two sequencers in absolute time if you have a digital audio sync between them, using something like word clock, which is not possible with the MPC2000.

You are probably better off using the DAW as the master, and have the MPC slave to the DAW. If you have the MPC as the master, depending on your sync settings, the DAW will start at the same time location, but then run at it's own internal timebase, based on the sample rate setting, which will be a different speed to the MPC. Depedning on the length of the audio recording, this may or may not be noticible.

Be aware that with MTC, it can only lock up with a 1/4 MTC frame accuracy on each pass, if using multiple passes for different sounds from the same sequence, each will start at a slightly different time. It might be useful to record an MPC count in on each pass, and zoom in to the sample level to visually line up each separate pass exactly, if it matters to you.



If you do decide to make Logic an MTC slave to the MPC, make sure you use the correct sync setting in Logic.

MTC Continuous varies the samplerate so that it can follow incoming MTC exactly, which is probably not a good choice as the pitch of the recorded audio will vary slightly as the samplerate varies.

MTC Trigger is probably the only option with Logic slaving to incoming MTC, but as mentioned, Logic will play/record it's audio at it's own internal timebase, once the audio playback/recording has started.

External or Free would be the best option, but without a digital audio sync between the devices it will not work.

http://support.apple.com/kb/PH13382

Note: The real-time sample rate conversion feature of Logic Pro allows it to follow an external MTC signal (MTC Continuous), while maintaining the correct audio playback pitch and speed. This feature even works when recording in MTC-slave mode.
When Additional Audio Options is selected in Advanced preferences, the following is available:

■Core Audio pop-up menu: Defines how your Core Audio hardware is synchronized to an external timecode master.

◦MTC Continuous: Audio regions are started in sync, and the sample rate is continuously regulated to match variations in the timecode master signal. Even very long audio regions stay in sync in this mode.

◦MTC Trigger + Auto Speed Detection: Similar to MTC Trigger (see below), but the tempo of the timecode master is constantly monitored while Logic Pro is running. The next time you start Logic Pro, it will use an adapted sample rate. This mode keeps long regions in better sync with the timecode master, although not as closely as MTC Continuous. It does, however, use a constant sample rate, which is not affected by variations in the timecode master signal.

◦MTC Trigger: Audio regions are started in sync, but are then played at a constant sample rate, regardless of any variations in the timecode master signal. Logic Pro always uses the set nominal sample rate (44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 192 kHz). This mode is suitable when it is vital to retain the absolute pitch of a recording. If the speed of the timecode master deviates from the nominal value, you may need to split long audio regions into shorter sections.

◦External or Free:Logic Pro has no influence on the sample rate. The audio hardware is responsible for ensuring that the position and sample rate of audio regions match. This mode is only advisable if you are sure that the Word Clock and timecode master are running in sync—by using an external SMPTE or Word Clock synchronizer, for example.

Accurate info from a trusted source.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_ar ... ecode.html

The phrase 'MIDI Time Code', or MTC, often crops up when talking about sync'ing MIDI devices to each other -- but what exactly is MTC, and what are its benefits when compared to, say, SMPTE or MIDI Clock sync? Most textbooks dismiss MTC by saying that it's the MIDI equivalent of SMPTE, but that's not really the whole story. It's true that some MTC systems work by taking SMPTE from tape and then turning it into MTC (Philip Rees' TS1 unit, for example, reviewed in SOS March '95, is capable of this) -- but then the Alesis BRC can generate MTC directly from the ADAT's own subcode without SMPTE necessarily being involved at all. Essentially, MTC follows the same format as SMPTE in that it is independent of musical tempo and expresses elapsed time in hours, minutes, seconds and frames, and all the common SMPTE variants have an MTC equivalent.

Standard MIDI Clock sync doesn't include any position information -- it's rather like the sprocket holes in cine film -- so if a sync pulse gets lost, the sequencer will happily follow along one pulse late. SMPTE, on the other hand, comprises a continuous stream of positional data, so if a short section of code gets lost or corrupted, the system knows exactly where it's supposed to be the next time a piece of valid code is read. MTC also includes positional information, but because it has to share the MIDI data highway with other information, its data is sent in short bursts -- four to each SMPTE frame. It takes eight of these 'quarter frame' messages to carry enough data to make up one complete set of location data, which means that the receiving MIDI device must read two frames of code before it knows where it's supposed to be.

Technically, MTC can't pass on positional information as quickly or as accurately as SMPTE, but for practical tape-to-MIDI sync applications, a little clever software writing on the part of the sequencer designers ensures that there's no practical difference.

If MTC has a weakness, it's that its position in the MIDI data stream can get jostled about when a lot of data is being sent; if you have a multi-port MIDI interface, it's usually best to make sure the port carrying the MTC isn't clogged with other MIDI data. If the MIDI data stream is running close to capacity, the MTC data may arrive a little behind schedule -- which has the effect of introducing a small amount of timing jitter. In really adverse situations, this may be serious enough to be noticeable

Achieving optimal sync references.

a. Power conditioners.

References:
http://www.furmansound.com/page.php?id=WHY_PWR
http://www.audioholics.com/power-condit ... 0-pm-video
http://www.coreaudiotechnology.com/why- ... tal-audio/

b. MIDI cable length.

References:
http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/midi-c ... y-latency/

c. MTC vs MIDI Clock. Article to show that MTC provides better sync between sequencers. *Has nothing to do with Word Clock. Word Clock is associated with sync'ing digital signals not MIDI sync between 2 sequencers. Unless you are connecting your MPC to your AD/DA interface there is no reason to worry about Word Clock.

References:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_ar ... ecode.html
http://tweakheadz.com/sync-mmc-mtc-smpte/

d. Master vs Slave. I can't find any articles on the subject but I will give you my reasoning. DAWs and computers today are lightening fast compared to an MPC created almost 2 decades ago. If your DAW receives MIDI Time Code, it will immediately lock up. The same is not necessarily true in reverse. If your DAW is the Master, it will immediately send sync messages to your MPC. But your MPC may not respond immediately. A common method to prevent this is to add empty bars at the start of your DAW project to ensure there is enough time for your MPC (Slave device) to lock up.

Additionally, having the MPC as the Master, you get to start/stop Logic from the MPC transport. Always a plus!

Ultimately it is up to you which method you prefer. Try them both and use which ever works best. But as I wrote above and provided links, it is better to use MTC to lock two sequencers.

e. MIDI Ports. Use dedicated MIDI Out Ports to separate MTC from MIDI performance paths to reduce possibility of data overload or delay.

References:
Huber, David M. The MIDI Manual - 2nd Edition. Burlington, MA: Focal Press.

Quoting a whole lot of stuff, and not understanding exactly how it relates to the topic, typcial Jerome.

Bus wrote:Achieving optimal sync references.

a. Power conditioners.

References:
http://www.furmansound.com/page.php?id=WHY_PWR
http://www.audioholics.com/power-condit ... 0-pm-video
http://www.coreaudiotechnology.com/why- ... tal-audio/

Nothing in there about MTC or MIDI Clock.

No one needs a power conditioner to sync their MPC to their DAW, it is bizarre to recommend that they need to. How many people here sync their MPC to their DAW, regularly, and how many need a power conditioner to do so?

Bus wrote:b. MIDI cable length.

References:
http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/midi-c ... y-latency/

This is what it says... "20 feet is a very safe and conservative limit for MIDI cable length."

Most people will not have MIDI cables over 20 feet, and even if they did, 20 feet is 'very safe and conservative', they do not need to go out and buy 'short' (<20 feet long) MIDI cables.

Bus wrote:c. MTC vs MIDI Clock. Article to show that MTC provides better sync between sequencers. *Has nothing to do with Word Clock. Word Clock is associated with sync'ing digital signals not MIDI sync between 2 sequencers. Unless you are connecting your MPC to your AD/DA interface there is no reason to worry about Word Clock.

References:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_ar ... ecode.html
http://tweakheadz.com/sync-mmc-mtc-smpte/

Word clock is required to keep MTC between two devices in absolute sync, so that they run at the same timebase.

This is about recording an MPC into a DAW, through an AD/DA interface. Without word clock sync, it is better to have the DAW as the MTC master, so that the MTC matches the DAW timebase exactly, and have the MPC slave to the DAW.

Bus wrote:d. Master vs Slave. I can't find any articles on the subject but I will give you my reasoning. DAWs and computers today are lightening fast compared to an MPC created almost 2 decades ago. If your DAW receives MIDI Time Code, it will immediately lock up. The same is not necessarily true in reverse. If your DAW is the Master, it will immediately send sync messages to your MPC. But your MPC may not respond immediately. A common method to prevent this is to add empty bars at the start of your DAW project to ensure there is enough time for your MPC (Slave device) to lock up.

Adding bars at the start to lock up sync before the first beat is standard practice. Same thing is going to happen whether you sync the DAW to the MPC, or the MPC to the DAW.

Bus wrote:Additionally, having the MPC as the Master, you get to start/stop Logic from the MPC transport. Always a plus!

Use MIDI Machine Control (MMC), then you can start Logic from the MPC transport, when Logic is the master, exactly the same result.

I'm off to order me a power conditioner!

Ron-Jay wrote:I'll preface this by saying that when I want to record a live beat from the MPC and do changes on the fly from within the MPC I have no problem whatsoever.

But in some cases I would like to just record each phrase one time and lay out the form of my beats in logic. I notice though that when tracking each track individually (ie. Hi Hats on track 1, Snare on track 2, Kick on track 3, etc.) when I play back my 8 bar loop I have an issue with not everything landing on the downbeat at the same time. I mean I know the MPC swings but goddamn. It shouldn't matter whether I quantize or not anyway. The full phrase one time all the way through at a specific BPM should come back together on the one, but it isn't happening. Any insight into this and whether I can make any adjustments to resolve this? Thanks a bunch.

This member is having issues with sync'ing Logic and an MPC. He appears to be using MIDI Beat Clock. MIDI Beat Clock is Temp Based Sync. While it will work, it is not flawless and devices can fall out of sync as this member is experiencing first hand. This member is not discussing anything about connecting his MPC to his DAW digitally.

I went to great lengths to provide solutions for this member to sync his MPC with his DAW. Fully understanding MIDI and the solutions I provided detailed information for will help solve his problem.

SimonInAustralia wrote::lol: Quoting a whole lot of stuff, and not understanding exactly how it relates to the topic, typcial Jerome.

Day 2-3 of you writing incorrect information. I am not sure why you would intentionally try to steer someone asking for help down the wrong path. Especially when another forum member with knowledge on the subject is providing help.

If you read the references you will understand how they relate to the topic. I will summarize them for your benefit. There isn't one statement or source I provided which are incorrect.

a. Power conditioners. Everyone should be using a Power Conditioner for Music Production equipment. All pro and semi-pro professional studios will have audio equipment connected to power conditioners.

Manufacturer specifications details how products perform in optimal conditions. Music Production gear require 100v-220 volts, 50/60 kHz. The outlets in our homes are subject to fluctuations, noise, interference, etc. "A good power conditioner filters and cleans incoming AC power and dramatically improves your equipment's performance." Starting with clean, consistent power should always be the first step in audio and video. It completely relates to the topic. Anyone arguing against using a power conditioner should be completely disregarded.

Reference:
Gervais, Rod. "Home Recording Studio". Course Technology: Boston, MA


b. MIDI cable length. "MIDI cable length does, however, affect the quality of the MIDI signal, and in that way can have a bottom line effect on the reliability of your MIDI system."

Member didn't specify how long his MIDI cables are. You don't assume things when offering help. I suggest to use the shortest cables and my reference backs it up and specifies under 20 feet is fine. If the member has short cables then there is nothing to go out and buy.

In a home studio, your will have power cables, audio cables, and MIDI cables. You never want to run different cable types running parallel with the others. They can pick up interference. This is another reason why I will always suggest using the shorter cables. They are easier to organize. This is why they come in varying lengths.

c. MTC and Word Clock. Word Clock is not needed to sync an MPC and your DAW if you are not using two digital connections. There is absolutely nothing to Sync. In order to Sync using Word Clock you require a Master and Slave digital sources. An MPC not using digital I/O can not be a Word Clock Master or Slave. Anyone suggesting otherwise should be completely discounted.

Reference: http://tweakheadz.com/sync-mmc-mtc-smpte/

The above reference tells you how MTC works. Please note that it doesn't mention Word Clock (digital sync) at all. Why should it? Because they are not the same and MTC does not require Word Clock. Your MPC manual should have a section dedicated to MTC. Read it. You will not find any information on an MTC syncing to another sequencer requiring Word Clock.

d. Master/Slave. I mentioned my reasons for which device I would set as a Master or Slave. I indicated it is up to end users to select the one that provides that most reliable sync. I provided further detail on how to improve sync by adding empty bars. None of the information I provided can be discounted. And you never assume anyone asking for help is aware of these solutions.

Use MIDI Machine Control (MMC), then you can start Logic from the MPC transport, when Logic is the master, exactly the same result.

MMC is another type of Sync. It is another OPTION for transport control. This information is listed in the references I provided links to.

@Simon
It appears your agenda is to prevent forum members asking for help to receive valuable information they can use to solve their problems. You have completely disregarded references to back up my suggestions. Additionally, you have provided incorrect information on Word Clock to add confusion to multiple topics.

I hope this information is useful to any forum member requiring it. Read the references I mentioned to gain a broader understanding of this and related topics. There is nothing more I can add on the subject that isn't already in the references and your MPC manual.

So I will leave with this last post in this thread. I have recording and engineering projects that require my attention. Going back and forth with a member that is not completely educated on this subject is counter productive.

Have a blessed week everyone.

Bus wrote:@Simon
It appears your agenda is to prevent forum members asking for help to receive valuable information they can use to solve their problems. You have completely disregarded references to back up my reasoning. Additionally, you have provided incorrect information on Word Clock to add confusion to multiple topics.

My agenda is to ensure that others do not blindly follow your incorrect advice.

You have seriously no idea what you are talking about, or what you are quoting.

It is simply ignorance on your part, I have provided links to information that discusses it, you are obviously not reading it, so you continue to be ignorant.

The only person being taken to school on the short bus, Jerome, is you, you are clueless.