Official: Akai Force Topic

Danoc wrote: Why in the hell would l buy into this new machine with the same ram as the X/Live? This machine should be better and not only that, upgradable and since its not l would never buy into it. As you upgrade the product is suppose to get better!

I dont make money being a tech genius my important role is to be the best musician possible.

machinesworking wrote:Nah, that's BS boasting for no real reason. Some of us bought the MPC Live knowing what the specs were and that it probably couldn't be upgradable.

We're thinking alike about the Force. I'm in the same boat, not interested in the Force until we hear more about what the software can do, and disappointed it seems to be the exact same hardware.
It’s not tech level genius shit to look at specs before you buy something.

You and others here go off constantly about how underpowered the MPC and now the new Force line, is. I knew about the 2GB RAM, lack of disc streaming, one MIDI input, no side chaining, crappy MIDI editor in the MPC line before I bought it. I'm all for all those things being improved 100% in on that, but in no way is the MPC2 software some sort of amateur product because we can see areas where it's lacking.

Danoc wrote:The 2 types of producers.
1. One that has the MPC and center core is the computer (that's ME).
2. One that would like to produce in standalone without the computer, then lay tracks in the computer. (Use to be me).
The center of the producers stg.

OK then there's the third option, I bought the MPC because it could do both and I planned on using it to do both. Basically I needed a live performance sound card, and a replacement for Maschine, but the idea of using dedicated hardware for sequencing without needing a computer appeals to me.
Currently that's how I'm using it, and I don't see it changing anytime soon. Bigger projects have the MPC either as a VSTi in Reaper, Live etc. or synced via beat clock. More minimal beat based stuff is in stand alone mode, after a while the couple hundred VSTs and multiple choice game of the computer needs some limitations.

machinesworking wrote:Disc streaming hasn't needed two computers for years, especially with SSDs. Hopefully people would be wise enough to follow through with a stems approach to all of this. Disc streaming is coming. These aren't camps BTW, I would appreciate more RAM for sure, but I don't foresee AKAI going the way of upgradable RAM, unless they took it back to their factory and charged an arm and a leg for it.

This shows the difference between Hobbyist and a Professional mindstate.

You disk stream with one computer and two hard drives. (One Data and One Audio.)

I disk stream with 3 computer connected to an attached network server. Why? Because I work with video as well and I use my 3 computers to render video. I want overkill, so that I don't have to buy a new rig every 2 years and I so don't hit unnecessary limits. Also I have built in redundancy, so that my Data is not lost. Why? So that my children, can access and live off the music I create, when I'm gone. (REAL TALK)


Other solutions:

Buy two MPC LIVE or MPC X's or MPC Force and sync them together. We use to track fly vocal's into into samplers and use them as tracking machines. But to do this, you need vocalist, who can perform and does not need 1000 punch in and 30 Vocal Tracks.

machinesworking wrote:I bought the MPC Live because it's a well though out device with a lot of great features. Maschine had dried up, Spark is a dead man walking, and I like the stand alone + controller idea of the MPCs, it's forward thinking.

Forward thinking would've been to stream audio over USB, Ethernet, MIDI Polyphonic Expression, controller remote layer, 8 to 16 GB's of RAM, MIDI over USB and more inputs/outputs.

machinesworking wrote:I knew beforehand the limitations, but IMO it's pretty freaking amazing for $1K. Currently I'm using it stand alone, because of the limitations, not in spite of them, and beat clocked to Reaper, Live, DP etc. I have no interest in the other MPC's, I like the fact that this is stand alone, but I also use it in VST mode with Reaper primarily, because these types of VSTi's (Maschine, MPC2) tend to kill CPU in Live and DP.

I don't buy gear to limit myself. I buy gear because it's the best piece for the job. Also you need a beast computer, like we stated before, than you wouldn't have CPU issues.

machinesworking wrote:I'm still not convinced by the Force. Don't see it, until we have disc streaming, and more information about how it works with other DAWs on the computer besides Live, including the MPC2 software which it's starting to look like it doesn't work as well as the Live and X do, which is IMO a bad choice on AKAIs part, hopefully that's about integration slowly and not a permanent thing.

Yes, I've been saying that and asking those question. Remember you said to assume. Nevertheless I buy gear for 2 different reasons. I need to fill a whole in my system (Upgrade, Replace) and/or continued education.

CharlesRandolph wrote:

machinesworking wrote:Disc streaming hasn't needed two computers for years, especially with SSDs. Hopefully people would be wise enough to follow through with a stems approach to all of this. Disc streaming is coming. These aren't camps BTW, I would appreciate more RAM for sure, but I don't foresee AKAI going the way of upgradable RAM, unless they took it back to their factory and charged an arm and a leg for it.

This shows the difference between Hobbyist and a Professional mindstate.

You disk stream with one computer and two hard drives. (One Data and One Audio.)

I disk stream with 3 computer connected to an attached network server. Why? Because I work with video as well and I use my 3 computers to render video. I want overkill, so that I don't have to buy a new rig every 2 years and I so don't hit unnecessary limits. Also I have built in redundancy, so that my Data is not lost. Why? So that my children, can access and live off the music I create, when I'm gone. (REAL TALK)


Other solutions:

Buy two MPC LIVE or MPC X's or MPC Force and sync them together. We use to track fly vocal's into into samplers and use them as tracking machines. But to do this, you need vocalist, who can perform and does not need 1000 punch in and 30 Vocal Tracks.

I've met plenty of professionals that only knew enough to get by. My mindstate is to look at the product for what it is, not what I want it to be.

I don't get you're points. not because I can't understand it but because is anyone really asking that of the MPC? Why? Freaking Reaper is $60-200, same with Logic etc. Why would anyone approach a composing device like it's supposed to replace Pro Tools??

Has the iPad replaced the desktop in professional studios? Why are we expecting Force or the MPC to compete with desktops?

machinesworking wrote:I bought the MPC Live because it's a well though out device with a lot of great features. Maschine had dried up, Spark is a dead man walking, and I like the stand alone + controller idea of the MPCs, it's forward thinking.

Forward thinking would've been to stream audio over USB, Ethernet, MIDI Polyphonic Expression, controller remote layer, 8 to 16 GB's of RAM, MIDI over USB and more inputs/outputs.

Again, why ask that much out of an instrument? The computer is right there.

I don't buy gear to limit myself. I buy gear because it's the best piece for the job. Also you need a beast computer, like we stated before, than you wouldn't have CPU issues.

I'm not sure where you got CPU issues from? Yes, the computer is plenty powerful, 12 core 3.33Ghz Xeons 24GB RAM. XP941 startup drive SM951 for sample libraries. I have VEP if I want to use the laptop as a front end if orchestral libraries become too much for most DAWs, and hardly ever use it.

machinesworking wrote:I'm still not convinced by the Force. Don't see it, until we have disc streaming, and more information about how it works with other DAWs on the computer besides Live, including the MPC2 software which it's starting to look like it doesn't work as well as the Live and X do, which is IMO a bad choice on AKAIs part, hopefully that's about integration slowly and not a permanent thing.

Yes, I've been saying that and asking those question. Remember you said to assume. Nevertheless I buy gear for 2 different reasons. I need to fill a whole in my system (Upgrade, Replace) and/or continued education.

Yeah I hear you. The Force looks like a great idea to me, but I'm not that uncomfortable using Ableton Live with Push 2 and MPC Live etc. I'm just not feeling it yet, if they get some major tweaks to the OS and straighten out whatever the hell they're doing with the MPC2 software on the computer, how it loads loops and libraries you already have etc. I'm probably going to eat my words and buy one.

Where I think AKAI kinda lost it was not realizing that something like the MPC Live or Force could be the center of your live set, but the combination of 2GB of RAM and no disk streaming means being really careful with Stems etc. probably loading in another project or two mid set. We will see, you're right that streaming means a lot of users who haven't worked with it much on the computer will do unintentionally dumb things like buy a 5400rpm cheap HD and wonder why their audio drops out when they're beating the crap out of the pads with 16+ tracks playing.


"c r a p" is banned here?? weird?

Its both a hobby and another source of income. With 2 gb ram you should have known that it would be limited with long ass samples. It was asked during namm on release about limitations and we were told what they were. Akai promised disk streaming now problem solved. This whole need more ram argument is kinda useless now. As I mentioned before ipad was running 1gb ram with no issues, it all depends on the capability and streamline of software.

machinesworking wrote:I've met plenty of professionals that only knew enough to get by.

Knowing just enough is something that an expert, will never settle for.

machinesworking wrote:My mindstate is to look at the product for what it is, not what I want it to be. I don't get you're points. not because I can't understand it but because is anyone really asking that of the MPC?

Why? Freaking Reaper is $60-200, same with Logic etc. Why would anyone approach a composing device like it's supposed to replace Pro Tools??

My job is to use these tools, beyond how they were meant to be.

machinesworking wrote:Has the iPad replaced the desktop in professional studios? Why are we expecting Force or the MPC to compete with desktops?

Because Desktops and Laptop is the real competitions for Standalone devices.

machinesworking wrote:Again, why ask that much out of an instrument? The computer is right there.

Because many of us, use the MPC for more than just a drum machine. [THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX]

Where I think AKAI kinda lost it was not realizing that something like the MPC Live or Force could be the center of your live set, but the combination of 2GB of RAM and no disk streaming means being really careful with Stems etc. probably loading in another project or two mid set. We will see, you're right that streaming means a lot of users who haven't worked with it much on the computer will do unintentionally dumb things like buy a 5400rpm cheap HD and wonder why their audio drops out when they're beating the **** out of the pads with 16+ tracks playing. "c r a p" is banned here?? weird?

We have been using MPC's, for live set on tours for a long time.

hansjbs wrote:Its both a hobby and another source of income. With 2 gb ram you should have known that it would be limited with long ass samples. It was asked during namm on release about limitations and we were told what they were. Akai promised disk streaming now problem solved. This whole need more ram argument is kinda useless now. As I mentioned before ipad was running 1gb ram with no issues, it all depends on the capability and streamline of software.

For me, music it's a way of life, not just another source of income. To state it again, the RAM is for effects. If you want better effects, you need more RAM not Disk streaming.

This isn’t about realizing now that RAM is an issue. I’ve seen this implication numerous times in this thread. We all knew how much RAM was inside these things when we bought them - well, at least I did, and I’m sure others did as well.

RAM didn’t become a topic until Akai released the latest OS with AIR products integrated. Speculation on what else could be added started, and then everyone came to the realization that with only 2Gb of RAM, not much more could be done. Specifically, like Charles said, disk streaming doesn’t do squat for FX. The RAM discussion is about FX, not audio tracks. I think everyone in this thread agrees that disk streaming is critical for sample playback and audio tracks. But FX require RAM. And now that they are heading in this direction of integrating AIR, the only way they’re going to really be able to do that, is by adding RAM, not disk streaming. Correct me if I’m wrong - never claim to be an expert on anything.

Eyalc wrote:This isn’t about realizing now that RAM is an issue. I’ve seen this implication numerous times in this thread. We all knew how much RAM was inside these things when we bought them - well, at least I did, and I’m sure others did as well.

RAM didn’t become a topic until Akai released the latest OS with AIR products integrated. Speculation on what else could be added started, and then everyone came to the realization that with only 2Gb of RAM, not much more could be done. Specifically, like Charles said, disk streaming doesn’t do squat for FX. The RAM discussion is about FX, not audio tracks. I think everyone in this thread agrees that disk streaming is critical for sample playback and audio tracks. But FX require RAM. And now that they are heading in this direction of integrating AIR, the only way they’re going to really be able to do that, is by adding RAM, not disk streaming. Correct me if I’m wrong - never claim to be an expert on anything.

You are 100% spot on. So at this point either it's use it in controller mode or buy two Akai Force or Akai sales MPC OS effects that can be installed on the FORCE/LIVE/X.

CharlesRandolph wrote:Knowing just enough is something that an expert, will never settle for.

This is called moving the goalposts, you said 'professional'. Professional does not automatically mean expert. Some dude in the early 2000's in Electronic Musician wrote an article about how optimizing your hard drive space with third party tools could free up CPU on OSX.

CharlesRandolph wrote:My job is to use these tools, beyond how they were meant to be.

I like to use the tool most suited for the job, editing and recording vocals on the MPC stand alone sounds like a lot of extra work when the computer is right there.

CharlesRandolph wrote:

machinesworking wrote:Has the iPad replaced the desktop in professional studios? Why are we expecting Force or the MPC to compete with desktops?

Because Desktops and Laptop is the real competitions for Standalone devices.

Kind of, I think of these new touch screen surface powered products from AKAI as complimentary, because there's no way in hell they'll win any competition with a decent regular computer right now. They may end up being less prone to issues though. The Force might last for years longer as a stage device than any laptop and Push combo would..

CharlesRandolph wrote:Because many of us, use the MPC for more than just a drum machine. [THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX]

It's a great sequencer for sure, when it gets disk streaming updates etc. you should be able to use it for a lot of simpler 6 channel live recording situations I would imagine. Yes, it's much more than a drum machine, but it will probably never match the power of a desktop. The other elephant in the room is out of the box control surface power, i.e. it should be plug and play, no worries about conflicts, a single developers device etc.

CharlesRandolph wrote:

machinesworking wrote: Where I think AKAI kinda lost it was not realizing that something like the MPC Live or Force could be the center of your live set, but the combination of 2GB of RAM and no disk streaming means being really careful with Stems etc. probably loading in another project or two mid set. We will see, you're right that streaming means a lot of users who haven't worked with it much on the computer will do unintentionally dumb things like buy a 5400rpm cheap HD and wonder why their audio drops out when they're beating the **** out of the pads with 16+ tracks playing. "c r a p" is banned here?? weird?

We have been using MPC's, for live set on tours for a long time.

Probably not as the only device though, this is what all of our arguments about RAM VS Disk streaming etc. I would guess are partially motivated by. I've used Live and Push 2, other things before it, live. In the 80's we used a Mac Pro and Performer hooked up to a Mirage for backing percussion, noise etc. Lately it's all laptops and Live.

In terms of performing the songs you make, I think it's not any surprise that everyone would like more solutions than a complex set up of various hardware, or a laptop with Live etc. or in big arenas two computers synced for backing tracks etc.

Live is a pig, nothing to do with computer specs, it's been a pig from day one. Tests constantly show about 30-45% more CPU use than Logic, DP, Reaper, Studio One, etc. etc. etc. Bitwig is no better, and the MPC2 software is in that same category.

CharlesRandolph wrote:

Eyalc wrote:This isn’t about realizing now that RAM is an issue. I’ve seen this implication numerous times in this thread. We all knew how much RAM was inside these things when we bought them - well, at least I did, and I’m sure others did as well.

RAM didn’t become a topic until Akai released the latest OS with AIR products integrated. Speculation on what else could be added started, and then everyone came to the realization that with only 2Gb of RAM, not much more could be done. Specifically, like Charles said, disk streaming doesn’t do squat for FX. The RAM discussion is about FX, not audio tracks. I think everyone in this thread agrees that disk streaming is critical for sample playback and audio tracks. But FX require RAM. And now that they are heading in this direction of integrating AIR, the only way they’re going to really be able to do that, is by adding RAM, not disk streaming. Correct me if I’m wrong - never claim to be an expert on anything.

You are 100% spot on. So at this point either it's use it in controller mode or buy two Akai Force or Akai sales MPC OS effects that can be installed on the FORCE/LIVE/X.

If AKAI are smart about this, they heavily recommend installing a disk into the Force and MPCs etc. because all modern OS's including the Linux underneath the MPCs are capable of using swap space on the computer for RAM. Not ideal I know, ideal is allowing upgrades to the RAM of these machines, but between them doing both of these things that could solve this issue. Then we get convolution reverbs etc.

machinesworking wrote:This is called moving the goalposts, you said 'professional'. Professional does not automatically mean expert. Some dude in the early 2000's in Electronic Musician wrote an article about how optimizing your hard drive space with third party tools could free up CPU on OSX.

You're correct. However professional and expert do overlap. I believe in this case you understood what I meant.

CharlesRandolph wrote:My job is to use these tools, beyond how they were meant to be.

I like to use the tool most suited for the job, editing and recording vocals on the MPC stand alone sounds like a lot of extra work when the computer is right there.

machinesworking wrote: Kind of, I think of these new touch screen surface powered products from AKAI as complimentary, because there's no way in hell they'll win any competition with a decent regular computer right now. They may end up being less prone to issues though. The Force might last for years longer as a stage device than any laptop and Push combo would..

Agreed.

machinesworking wrote:It's a great sequencer for sure, when it gets disk streaming updates etc. you should be able to use it for a lot of simpler 6 channel live recording situations I would imagine. Yes, it's much more than a drum machine, but it will probably never match the power of a desktop. The other elephant in the room is out of the box control surface power, i.e. it should be plug and play, no worries about conflicts, a single developers device etc.

Agreed.

machinesworking wrote:Probably not as the only device though, this is what all of our arguments about RAM VS Disk streaming etc. I would guess are partially motivated by. I've used Live and Push 2, other things before it, live. In the 80's we used a Mac Pro and Performer hooked up to a Mirage for backing percussion, noise etc. Lately it's all laptops and Live.

Not used it as the only playback device, but yes it was used as the main device.

machinesworking wrote: Live is a pig, nothing to do with computer specs, it's been a pig from day one. Tests constantly show about 30-45% more CPU use than Logic, DP, Reaper, Studio One, etc. etc. etc. Bitwig is no better, and the MPC2 software is in that same category.

Agreed.

ayatolli, +1!

We might get a Pre-NAMM video like they did with the Live and X..
I'm only interested in SW 2.4 and it's release date.
Hope they'll launch it just like Apple: Next day available..

CharlesRandolph wrote:

hansjbs wrote:Its both a hobby and another source of income. With 2 gb ram you should have known that it would be limited with long ass samples. It was asked during namm on release about limitations and we were told what they were. Akai promised disk streaming now problem solved. This whole need more ram argument is kinda useless now. As I mentioned before ipad was running 1gb ram with no issues, it all depends on the capability and streamline of software.

For me, music it's a way of life, not just another source of income. To state it again, the RAM is for effects. If you want better effects, you need more RAM not Disk streaming.

And you assumed its not the same for me because i also use it as a source of income? Again RAM is not the case. If the fx is well written and streamlined for the software it won't be an issue until your planning to use multiple fx on a lot of tracks which these mpcs were not meant for. That's the take away, the mpcs were not meant for full production and mastering. Even the older ones were not not even mpc 4000.

Once you understand and realize that these MPCs were not meant for full on production like i do RAM won't be a problem for FX. In order to keep cost down they had to make sacrifices. Could they have built a better system with at least 8gb ram and extra powerful yes but it would be extremely expensive. People complain now about the prices of these products which offer quite a bit. Compare them to other products and do pros and cons. I know people That complain about the MPC but are dropping over 1k on a apple phone or iPad just to browse the internet post on social media and make phone calls. The company i work for build product for the military and as an engineer I can better understand pricing now then I did before. There's a lot that goes into building these things and as a company they have to make money and make sacrifices on features and spec to sell and make a profit