Is the MPC X getting the Force "Arranger Mode"?

40Beatz wrote:

Lumi wrote:
No it doesn't have 2gb of Ram.
2gb are shared between Ram and Os.
So it was a lie and as a matter of fact Akai removed the sticker from the Mpc Box that said 2gb of Ram.
Also the idea that anything you could do on computer, you could also do on standalone was a lie

Lol...Exactly what i said. Where's the Lie?

I gon assume you interpreted 2GB of FREE RAM

Ahah yeah.
That's the trick. If you don't want to call it lie, you can call it trick.
If I read 2gb of Ram, I assume it means I can use 2gb of Ram, not 900mb.
Also if I read anything I can do on computer, I can do on standalone, I assume I don't have to use computer to finish the mix I made in standalone. And I assume that if computer has many available audio tracks, then standalone doesn't only have 8.
Lies?
Tricks?
Whatever.
Akai marketing.

Yea They Tricked you

I assumed thats why Controller Mode is there. If I cant Knock it out the Park in Standalone Mode, Controller Mode was there to Help me out. Thats what they were pushing in the Early YouTube Videos when it came out a Few years back

40Beatz wrote:Yea They Tricked you

I assumed thats why Controller Mode is there. If I cant Knock it out the Park in Standalone Mode, Controller Mode was there to Help me out. Thats what they were pushing in the Early YouTube Videos when it came out a Few years back

I said I love my Mpc Live.
So I am not feeling tricked at all.
It was just to say that you never have to trust Akai marketing.
It's like I tell you: do you wanna buy my Mpc? It has 8gb of Ram.
Then you buy it and find you have 2gb which truly is 900mb.
You send me a message: hey, WTF, I just have 2gb (or 900mb) of Ram.
I reply: connect it to computer and you will have 8gb (or 16 or 32) of Ram.
You say: ****, you didn't tell me that.
I reply: you didn't ask me.

Interesting to see all the hypernegative comments about the development (here and elsewhere on the interwebsies). IMO the choice of moving away from OS-per-device to a unified software platform that is same across different devices is brilliant. The development will be difficult at the beginning, as you are writing everything from scratch (even with the help of the JUCE library, creating a full fledged DAW that runs on a tablet is a daunting task), but the longevity of the devices and the platform will be extended immensely.

What I've seen so far is Akai fulfilling it's contracts with partners who most likely have invested into the development through advertising deals (Splice, Ableton). Now that those deals are fulfilled, they can continue on adding stuff in.

From a development pov, I can tell that it doesn't work like "come up with a feature, throw money at it and it will be there next monday", you're working with hardware limitations, unexpected limitations, JUCE library limitations, human resources (MPC software is not their only product), writing some feature for couple of months only to find out that it will break so many things that you can't put it on next release and therefore you will piss off a lot of users etc. The list is endless.

I've seen so many crazy requests from users, like a full fledged multi-layered sample-based instrument that can push more than 2GB of samples - with no perspective on what the difference is between the MPC [Live] and a workstation PC OR a dedicated synthesizer. The bandwidth and CPU requirements are massive. I got myself a Yamaha MOXF8 with a sample board just to have a dedicated synthesizer because I knew even from not looking at the specs that the MPC [again, I have only experience with the Live] can't handle it. Most of the requests are nice and all but they would be better if moved to dedicated devices or wait at least 20 years so technology can catch up.

For perspective, the MOXF uses a flash memory that works extremely fast, extremely parallel and is almost extremely expensive - just so it doesn't drop audio or glitch out when playing large multisampled instrument. As a dev, I would never even start cramming that thing into the MPC, even though there is one coming as they are trying to get the Xpand to work, albeit a bit stripped down.

I was looking at writing my own little drum machine style app and run it on the MPC just for shts n giggles, but getting even a small program to run smoothly and without interruptions in there is a massive undertaking, so for now I'm just content in watching how Akai advances in the development. The only thing I'm missing is a proper clip launcher that allows me to launch multiple sequences at once - being locked in one linear sequence is a little cumbersome (even though with mutegroups you can get really far).

But yeah, just a few thoughts. It's easy to whine, then you try to program something yourself and realize "oh, that's why it's taking so long" ...

Bonsaipanda wrote:Interesting to see all the hypernegative comments about the development (here and elsewhere on the interwebsies). IMO the choice of moving away from OS-per-device to a unified software platform that is same across different devices is brilliant. The development will be difficult at the beginning, as you are writing everything from scratch (even with the help of the JUCE library, creating a full fledged DAW that runs on a tablet is a daunting task), but the longevity of the devices and the platform will be extended immensely.

What I've seen so far is Akai fulfilling it's contracts with partners who most likely have invested into the development through advertising deals (Splice, Ableton). Now that those deals are fulfilled, they can continue on adding stuff in.

From a development pov, I can tell that it doesn't work like "come up with a feature, throw money at it and it will be there next monday", you're working with hardware limitations, unexpected limitations, JUCE library limitations, human resources (MPC software is not their only product), writing some feature for couple of months only to find out that it will break so many things that you can't put it on next release and therefore you will piss off a lot of users etc. The list is endless.

I've seen so many crazy requests from users, like a full fledged multi-layered sample-based instrument that can push more than 2GB of samples - with no perspective on what the difference is between the MPC [Live] and a workstation PC OR a dedicated synthesizer. The bandwidth and CPU requirements are massive. I got myself a Yamaha MOXF8 with a sample board just to have a dedicated synthesizer because I knew even from not looking at the specs that the MPC [again, I have only experience with the Live] can't handle it. Most of the requests are nice and all but they would be better if moved to dedicated devices or wait at least 20 years so technology can catch up.

For perspective, the MOXF uses a flash memory that works extremely fast, extremely parallel and is almost extremely expensive - just so it doesn't drop audio or glitch out when playing large multisampled instrument. As a dev, I would never even start cramming that thing into the MPC, even though there is one coming as they are trying to get the Xpand to work, albeit a bit stripped down.

I was looking at writing my own little drum machine style app and run it on the MPC just for shts n giggles, but getting even a small program to run smoothly and without interruptions in there is a massive undertaking, so for now I'm just content in watching how Akai advances in the development. The only thing I'm missing is a proper clip launcher that allows me to launch multiple sequences at once - being locked in one linear sequence is a little cumbersome (even though with mutegroups you can get really far).

But yeah, just a few thoughts. It's easy to whine, then you try to program something yourself and realize "oh, that's why it's taking so long" ...

Well yeah, actually it took 3 years to get to the level of 2.8 Mpc, when I bought it in january 2018 it was so basic and buggy.
Akai made a great job on one side, now all is faster and all the hiccups have disappeared, it's a good working device even if with multimidi protocol there have been some issues but I guess they will fix them quite easily.
I think the goal of Akai is to make all the different devices connected to a sort of ecosystem, something similar to what Roland is doing with Zen core, or maybe to open the ecosystem to third party developers for synths or effects, which could be a great idea for me.
I can see you are expert about coding and this sort of things, so my question is: do you think that is possible to make such ecosystem and to open the platform to third party developers in a short/medium time or that is something hard and long to codify?
And is there any chance it can be done?

ah, back to the good old ram whining, nearly missed it in the last couple of days^^
you are right with the false advertisment and other users told me in other treads that the whole ram is often needed when loading big keygroup programs, but when just slicing a sample and loading some drums, I still feel that in approximatly 100 mins of sample time one should be able to find a slice that is at least semi decent^^

or look at the octratrack, digitakt for example....look at older mpcs... The usable Ram is laughable and people release pure gold with them..

And just a thought, I think akai really went to town with the new firmware upgrades..look at electribes for example, still in stores and 2 upgrades in the whole lifetime of the product..really dont get the steady whining about everything akai does..
dont like it, sell it...and enjoy the other standalone grooveboxes....oh, wait^^

Lumi wrote:Well yeah, actually it took 3 years to get to the level of 2.8 Mpc, when I bought it in january 2018 it was so basic and buggy.
Akai made a great job on one side, now all is faster and all the hiccups have disappeared, it's a good working device even if with multimidi protocol there have been some issues but I guess they will fix them quite easily.
I think the goal of Akai is to make all the different devices connected to a sort of ecosystem, something similar to what Roland is doing with Zen core, or maybe to open the ecosystem to third party developers for synths or effects, which could be a great idea for me.
I can see you are expert about coding and this sort of things, so my question is: do you think that is possible to make such ecosystem and to open the platform to third party developers in a short/medium time or that is something hard and long to codify?
And is there any chance it can be done?

I'm not an expert in programming, but just giving some perspective on the fact that it is a very labour intensive discipline, especially when developing a complex system like the MPC Software. And that is an understatement.

And yes, it is possible to do almost anything in the box that you would normally do on the desktop, the AIR plugins are a prime example of this - brilliant quality effects in a portable little device.

Akai is most likely headed to the direction of opening up the framework to partner developers but it all comes down (again) to limitations - the ARM board inside the MPCs is powerful, but it's not a God-tier PC, so the time is not right .. yet.

Best focus right now is to modernize the workflow, stabilize and lock the standard for the system, then start thinking about the next iteration as new hardware comes in to the market.

There was a person that came into the modding group and asked how he could reverse engineer Ableton and the MPC software so he could port Ableton into the MPC. And this is without any prior knowledge of programming or software development in general. Now, I didn't want to discourage him - learning is the key to life and all - but he was looking at a 4-8 years of heavy studying and at the end it would be a disappointment that the little ARM box really couldn't push Ableton's requirements. We tried to tell him that what Akai is doing now, is almost the best solution other than writing your own app in pure C++ from scratch.

This same goes into dreaming about VSTs and VST instruments coming into the MPC - it IS possible, it can be done today, with very little effort (I think JUCE has the stuff in it to bolt in VST really fast, not sure) - but it will be disappointing as most VSTs are designed for the desktop, where only your bank account limits on how much you can push it. In here, we are quite limited on how much we can turn on at once, so the VST that was to be ported, should be heavily optimized for the ARM platform stripping away anything that might cause usage spikes etc.

But yeah, all of that is quite doable.

Everything you said is 100% true, but this is why they should've only created one MPC. That way all R&D would go to that single machine. This would help avoid writing code that works for one device, but breaks on another. My issue is not with the programmers, because they do what they're told to do. You have to admit that it's crazy to work like this for such a niche product.

From 2008 to 2012 is the gap between MPC 5000 and MPC REN. So we must assume, that the software and format for the MPC REN was being developed during that time. The question is why did they move away from the dedicated controller and desktop combination? Upgrade the Ren with more inputs and outs and then add a standalone feature. Which is what they did with the MPC X in 2017, which is another 5 year gap.

The LIVE, ONE, LIVE 2, Studio/studio black, Touch, Force were not needed. The MPC X should've been all those machines and they've would flew off the shelf. This would've helped to unite the userbase, instead of fracturing it with each release. For those saying the money is not there, remember people are buying $5000+ SP1200 and $3000+ MPC 60.

Bonsaipanda wrote:Interesting to see all the hypernegative comments about the development (here and elsewhere on the interwebsies). IMO the choice of moving away from OS-per-device to a unified software platform that is same across different devices is brilliant. The development will be difficult at the beginning, as you are writing everything from scratch (even with the help of the JUCE library, creating a full fledged DAW that runs on a tablet is a daunting task), but the longevity of the devices and the platform will be extended immensely.

What I've seen so far is Akai fulfilling it's contracts with partners who most likely have invested into the development through advertising deals (Splice, Ableton). Now that those deals are fulfilled, they can continue on adding stuff in.

From a development pov, I can tell that it doesn't work like "come up with a feature, throw money at it and it will be there next monday", you're working with hardware limitations, unexpected limitations, JUCE library limitations, human resources (MPC software is not their only product), writing some feature for couple of months only to find out that it will break so many things that you can't put it on next release and therefore you will piss off a lot of users etc. The list is endless.

I've seen so many crazy requests from users, like a full fledged multi-layered sample-based instrument that can push more than 2GB of samples - with no perspective on what the difference is between the MPC [Live] and a workstation PC OR a dedicated synthesizer. The bandwidth and CPU requirements are massive. I got myself a Yamaha MOXF8 with a sample board just to have a dedicated synthesizer because I knew even from not looking at the specs that the MPC [again, I have only experience with the Live] can't handle it. Most of the requests are nice and all but they would be better if moved to dedicated devices or wait at least 20 years so technology can catch up.

For perspective, the MOXF uses a flash memory that works extremely fast, extremely parallel and is almost extremely expensive - just so it doesn't drop audio or glitch out when playing large multisampled instrument. As a dev, I would never even start cramming that thing into the MPC, even though there is one coming as they are trying to get the Xpand to work, albeit a bit stripped down.

I was looking at writing my own little drum machine style app and run it on the MPC just for shts n giggles, but getting even a small program to run smoothly and without interruptions in there is a massive undertaking, so for now I'm just content in watching how Akai advances in the development. The only thing I'm missing is a proper clip launcher that allows me to launch multiple sequences at once - being locked in one linear sequence is a little cumbersome (even though with mutegroups you can get really far).

But yeah, just a few thoughts. It's easy to whine, then you try to program something yourself and realize "oh, that's why it's taking so long" ...

CharlesRandolph wrote:Everything you said is 100% true, but this is why they should've only created one MPC. That way all R&D would go to that single machine. This would help avoid writing code that works for one device, but breaks on another. My issue is not with the programmers, because they do what they're told to do. You have to admit that it's crazy to work like this for such a niche product.

From 2008 to 2012 is the gap between MPC 5000 and MPC REN. So we must assume, that the software and format for the MPC REN was being developed during that time. The question is why did they move away from the dedicated controller and desktop combination? Upgrade the Ren with more inputs and outs and then add a standalone feature. Which is what they did with the MPC X in 2017, which is another 5 year gap.

The LIVE, ONE, LIVE 2, Studio/studio black, Touch, Force were not needed. The MPC X should've been all those machines and they've would flew off the shelf. This would've helped to unite the userbase, instead of fracturing it with each release. For those saying the money is not there, remember people are buying $5000+ SP1200 and $3000+ MPC 60.

They actually made only two MPCs. The MPC X/Live/One (they are essentially the same machine) and the Force. Force's software is just a branch from what the other MPCs have, the basic structure is the same but I see the Force as the first step in modernizing the sequencer, I saw the footage of the arranger and heard user comments that it's almost there but not quite. I personally don't need an arranger as I could just as well use Ableton or Reason for that, I'm very interested in seeing the Force style clips ported over to the Live (not sure if it will happen, big plans for 3.0 that I've heard). We shall see ...

Bonsaipanda wrote:They actually made only two MPCs. The MPC X/Live/One (they are essentially the same machine) and the Force. Force's software is just a branch from what the other MPCs have, the basic structure is the same but I see the Force as the first step in modernizing the sequencer, I saw the footage of the arranger and heard user comments that it's almost there but not quite. I personally don't need an arranger as I could just as well use Ableton or Reason for that, I'm very interested in seeing the Force style clips ported over to the Live (not sure if it will happen, big plans for 3.0 that I've heard). We shall see ...

I agree they're pretty much the same machine via software. But with different layouts and certain things disabled in the software. But on paper, workflow, internals, case and sku, they're different products. Each with shared and independent bugs. But this is what happens when, companies is trying to clear out parts.

Lumi wrote:, hoping they don't mess it up to add splices and whistles for the youngsters hiphop producers while messing up the internal architecture.

Man, they've already been doing this...

This is exactly what I've been saying over and over again. The foundation is shaky. 2.8 is proof.

But I definitely agree with you.

And about the false advertising, Akai has gotten better, but only by staying more quiet.

IMO they still use misleading and ambiguous marketing to hook people.

Lumi wrote:, hoping they don't mess it up to add splices and whistles for the youngsters hiphop producers while messing up the internal architecture.

The young hiphop producers are using fl studios and ableton, because they already have a computer that can run it. Midi keyboard, mouse, audio interface, and qwerty keyboard. $400 bucks and their off to the races making music.

Bonsaipanda wrote:

Lumi wrote:Well yeah, actually it took 3 years to get to the level of 2.8 Mpc, when I bought it in january 2018 it was so basic and buggy.
Akai made a great job on one side, now all is faster and all the hiccups have disappeared, it's a good working device even if with multimidi protocol there have been some issues but I guess they will fix them quite easily.
I think the goal of Akai is to make all the different devices connected to a sort of ecosystem, something similar to what Roland is doing with Zen core, or maybe to open the ecosystem to third party developers for synths or effects, which could be a great idea for me.
I can see you are expert about coding and this sort of things, so my question is: do you think that is possible to make such ecosystem and to open the platform to third party developers in a short/medium time or that is something hard and long to codify?
And is there any chance it can be done?

I'm not an expert in programming, but just giving some perspective on the fact that it is a very labour intensive discipline, especially when developing a complex system like the MPC Software. And that is an understatement.

And yes, it is possible to do almost anything in the box that you would normally do on the desktop, the AIR plugins are a prime example of this - brilliant quality effects in a portable little device.

Akai is most likely headed to the direction of opening up the framework to partner developers but it all comes down (again) to limitations - the ARM board inside the MPCs is powerful, but it's not a God-tier PC, so the time is not right .. yet.

Best focus right now is to modernize the workflow, stabilize and lock the standard for the system, then start thinking about the next iteration as new hardware comes in to the market.

There was a person that came into the modding group and asked how he could reverse engineer Ableton and the MPC software so he could port Ableton into the MPC. And this is without any prior knowledge of programming or software development in general. Now, I didn't want to discourage him - learning is the key to life and all - but he was looking at a 4-8 years of heavy studying and at the end it would be a disappointment that the little ARM box really couldn't push Ableton's requirements. We tried to tell him that what Akai is doing now, is almost the best solution other than writing your own app in pure C++ from scratch.

This same goes into dreaming about VSTs and VST instruments coming into the MPC - it IS possible, it can be done today, with very little effort (I think JUCE has the stuff in it to bolt in VST really fast, not sure) - but it will be disappointing as most VSTs are designed for the desktop, where only your bank account limits on how much you can push it. In here, we are quite limited on how much we can turn on at once, so the VST that was to be ported, should be heavily optimized for the ARM platform stripping away anything that might cause usage spikes etc.

But yeah, all of that is quite doable.

Wow.
It seems you know what you are talking about.
I think it would be very interesting to make Mpc platform like Reason, where you can buy Rack extensions made by other developers. Exactly as Air did.
I would imagine that for that you need more powerful cpu, but Air made it brilliantly so maybe it's possible.
I like the idea of Roland about connecting all their products with the same platform, I think it's a winner idea and Akai is able to do something like that, making all standalone compatible and interchangable.
Maybe that's the direction, who knows, Akai is unpredictable.

40Beatz wrote:Yea They Tricked you

I assumed thats why Controller Mode is there. If I cant Knock it out the Park in Standalone Mode, Controller Mode was there to Help me out. Thats what they were pushing in the Early YouTube Videos when it came out a Few years back

Now this is when: Read the manual works. I always wait until the manual is released before I buy gear. If the company is straight forward they'll have the manual and full specs readily available.