Force's new Arranger is here - MPC user thoughts?

We need that ASAP

The new arranger mode has me far more interested in the Force... though I'm going to wait and see what gets dropped on the MPC line... looks like a good attempt at the somewhat older style Ableton Live workflow

Lampdog wrote:

EnochLight wrote: That Grid Mode is the one thing that bridges the current gen MPC's song building into the modern realm, IMHO.

And it was SORELY needed and I’m glad it’s here!
I like having seq’s on main screen, it feels like an mpc of old with new visuals.

I don’t want my mpc to be daw like, I want it to be an mpc. Arranger, I could get used to it though.
I could always use an older os if I choose.

Help me understand why folks view the arranger as DAW like? Song mode is a less flexible linear perspective of the same thing. Aspects of the mixer look similar to DAW versions. Grid mode is a poor man's version of what's in DAWs.

There are many things on the MPC that are in DAWs, but the arranger is labeled DAW like.

Either way, why are folks so against "DAW features" in their MPC when they're more efficient? Copy & paste DAW style wouldn't be more efficient and welcomed over the multi step MPC way, for example? For some copy & pasting task, we have to go to a whole other screen/mode.

Bezo wrote:Either way, why are folks so against "DAW features" in their MPC when they're more efficient? Copy & paste DAW style wouldn't be more efficient and welcomed over the multi step MPC way, for example? For some copy & pasting task, we have to go to a whole other screen/mode.

Decent copy and paste doesn't need an arranger or any new mode added. Thats core functionality they should have planned better from the start.. Stuff like this is the reason we dont need or want an Arrange mode right now. They need to work on fixing the core of the MPC first before they start trying to reinvent it and throwing even more crap on top while breaking other sections of it like they do with just about every update.

Eyalc wrote:I think having this style arranger would be nice on an MPC. But there’s so many questions and doubts. First I don’t think Akai has the developer talent to pull it off. They’ve proven SO many times that their ideas and implementations are half-baked at best. Just sayin’.

Second, to replace MPC-style arrangement (song mode) with DAW-style arrangement would mean changing an underlying architecture that is probably 20 years old (or more). The Song concept would go away, the Sequence concept would go away (at least I believe it would). Doesn’t sound like a lot, but that’s deep foundational stuff that needs to change, and it’s already shown to be fragile (2.8.1).

Unless of course the arranger view would just be a visualization that sits on top of it all, and allows you to interact with it, edit midi, etc (refer back to my “half-baked” point). I could see this if it’s an option like was discussed a while ago. But I can’t see how they would get rid of song mode though. It’s old, and it’s outdated. But it’s at the core of the MPC.

Either way, it’s a huge undertaking. If they half-bake the design, it ain’t gonna be pretty. Would be very cool to see it happen though.

Agreed, all they need to do is change the visualization of arranger and mixer. If people want a headache, try composing, arraigning, and mixing a 6 minute song of 24 tracks on a MPC or Force. I watched the video and thought man, he seems to be pressing a whole lot of buttons and bouncing between a whole lot menus.

Monotremata wrote:

Bezo wrote:Either way, why are folks so against "DAW features" in their MPC when they're more efficient? Copy & paste DAW style wouldn't be more efficient and welcomed over the multi step MPC way, for example? For some copy & pasting task, we have to go to a whole other screen/mode.

Decent copy and paste doesn't need an arranger or any new mode added. Thats core functionality they should have planned better from the start.. Stuff like this is the reason we dont need or want an Arrange mode right now. They need to work on fixing the core of the MPC first before they start trying to reinvent it and throwing even more crap on top while breaking other sections of it like they do with just about every update.

Agreed. But much of the core functionality improvements would be DAW like. MPC heads hear DAW and instantly say Nah. Almost all of the updates have been DAW like or DAW related, and folks love them, maybe except for the synths.

I would definitely prefer a modernization of the core functionality over the arranger, but the arranger would be right behind that and bringing the software up to par. And yeah, the core functionality should've been addressed when the Rennaissance and software were released. Why they would introduce software without updating the core workflow is odd.

Bezo wrote:Agreed. But much of the core functionality improvements would be DAW like. MPC heads hear DAW and instantly say Nah. Almost all of the updates have been DAW like or DAW related, and folks love them, maybe except for the synths.

I would definitely prefer a modernization of the core functionality over the arranger, but the arranger would be right behind that and bringing the software up to par. And yeah, the core functionality should've been addressed when the Rennaissance and software were released. Why they would introduce software without updating the core workflow is odd.

Beyond theory, how would any of this improve your music?

40Beatz wrote:In My Opinion....
I don’t think they should implement this in the Live/X.

I can agree with this. I’m kind of okay with the way things are in my MPC Live now. The only thing I really would like to see them do is fix ALL the current bugs and add the Hype and Drum Synth.

CharlesRandolph wrote:

Bezo wrote:Agreed. But much of the core functionality improvements would be DAW like. MPC heads hear DAW and instantly say Nah. Almost all of the updates have been DAW like or DAW related, and folks love them, maybe except for the synths.

I would definitely prefer a modernization of the core functionality over the arranger, but the arranger would be right behind that and bringing the software up to par. And yeah, the core functionality should've been addressed when the Rennaissance and software were released. Why they would introduce software without updating the core workflow is odd.

Beyond theory, how would any of this improve your music?

Core functionality improvements would make the process quicker & more efficient. I'd have more songs done.

If the software were on par with other DAWs, I wouldn't be limited to just sketching on the hardware and finishing in Studio One.

And the arranger looks more like how I finish writing and arranging songs, so I could do more of that on the hardware if the software wasn't in play. Or in the software, it would resemble other DAWs that I currently use to finish this process.

So actually improve my music? Probably not much. But it would make the process smoother.

For me it would make the process way more lineair, it’s exactly as the name implies, It gives you the ability to arrange your song.

What’s also sweet about it is that you can place effects on top of those arranged tracks, and you can even automate them.

Automation is something you can’t do with the current submix busses and the master bus.

I’m seeing more things I really hope they bring to the MPC’s. The new Envelope Follower is f’ing bad ass. Elastic Pro offline rendering and Effect Racks? Hell yes please!

The thing I like about the current song mode is if I make a change to a sequence, it automatically updates in song mode. With the Force arranger, there is no direct link to the original sequences. Anything you record in the arranger is independent. So if I extend the length of a sequence, add notes, automation, I have to manually insert bars in the arranger, and manually copy or record my changes in. And if a sequence is the same in different sections of the arrangement (like a verse or hook), I have to go to each section and modify it.

Other than that, I like the effort and hopefully they will improve it more in the future.

DAW like? The whole touchscreen concept and everything that came with it already made it more DAW like. Plugins, automation and more focus on grid edit. It’s basically already a DAW in a box. Even though it doesn’t feel like DAW in a box to most people because of the way everything is set up. If the arranger screen would be the Main screen and replace the Sequence I can understand it will also feel very DAW like to everybody. But if it’s just a visualization of Song Mode it will fit perfectly inside the MPC environment, which would make a lot of sense with the larger screen of nowadays MPC’s. Just like sequencing and sequence editing became more visual.

To me personally those MPC’s already feel too much like a DAW, but if there are any more ‘DAW- like’ features I’d love to have inside an MPC then it would be an Arranger View and better mixer.

vinylstyle wrote:The thing I like about the current song mode is if I make a change to a sequence, it automatically updates in song mode. With the Force arranger, there is no direct link to the original sequences. Anything you record in the arranger is independent. So if I extend the length of a sequence, add notes, automation, I have to manually insert bars in the arranger, and manually copy or record my changes in. And if a sequence is the same in different sections of the arrangement (like a verse or hook), I have to go to each section and modify it.

Other than that, I like the effort and hopefully they will improve it more in the future.

This is an example half-baking a feature. If this is truly how it works (from the video it appears so), this would be a pain. I don’t know other DAWs beside Logic, but in a midi “object”, you can create a copy or an alias to it, and place either of them anywhere on the timeline.

This is how the clip mode/arranger mode operate in Ableton Live, which looks to have inspired the Force.

In Ableton Live, you record playing clips into the arranger, and then they are unique objects to work with that represent the moment in time you played it. If you make changes in the arranger then you need to copy them back into clip mode.

I don't have a Force, so I cannot speak directly here, but it sounds like it is working similar to Ableton Live's workflow.