Noticeable latency

Cockdiesel wrote:He was talking about the offset In The samples like I mentioned In my previous post. This has been gone over quite a bit with more technical people than I. Theres even a website that has everything documented but sifting through to fit that info will take time.

I have never had any latency issues, but I copied that paragraph because he was stating there was issues with SOME units.

But the main issue he's talking about is playback drift over a long period.... plus a bit of jitter, and some slightly unpredictable timing issues. Akai say all three of those issues were fixed from v2.1 onwards.

I was not having those kind of problems, I had consistently bad latency from pad strike to playback.

The information you’re seeking is out there replicated by many sources.

I have never found anyone who has replicated my test. Instead of arguing the toss, why don't you (or anyone else) just try my test and see what you get?

A digital machine like this will always have some latency. That's fine. It's a question of how much.

I did check and there was no sample offset switched on. Obviously a negative offset would make a sample play late. A positive offset can't make a sample play earlier, it just clips the start off the sample.

I set the MPC up so it was hit pad, play sample immediately. No reason for the sample to play back late other than the size of the output buffer the MPC uses. My suspicion is that Akai have been forced to make the buffer a bit too big - or the other way of looking at it is the processor is too slow for all the funky stuff Akai are asking it to do (which is why they need the big buffer).

Dude we’re are getting caught up in a mis communication here. I posted that paragraph because I was at work and kind of rushed. I was only trying to point out there was known issues with specific units not everyone as a whole.

There’s a whole forum here, including this thread, and over 800 pages on gearsluts to sift through to find the specific info you want.This was discussed heavily over there and quite some time ago.

Here’s what I am trying to say more clearly, there WAS a issue with offset of the samples needing to be turned from 0 to -1 the opposite of what you’re saying, it was only with some samples and more apparent on some units vs others. Having it set to 0 would slow down the attack.

There was also tests done By I thought these guys:

https://www.innerclocksystems.com/litmus

Providing information similar to:

Akai MPC-4000

Sync Master

> Audio Out Jitter - 1 sample (0.02ms)
> MIDI TX Jitter - 3 samples (0.06ms)

Sync Slave - MIDI Clock

> Audio Out Jitter - 29 samples (0.60ms)
> MIDI TX Jitter - 29 samples (0.60ms)
> Start Latency - TBC

But for the mpc live and x.

When this was a BIG issue dan from Akai had mentioned that the same guy who did the midi on the 4000 was the guy who made the new one in live/ x.

I am not trying to argue with you or anything negative just tell you what I have seen. I am more than willing to do your test but the only thing I can really multitrack is my sound card. I also tried to do a test of the midi jitter over two years ago but didn’t get Ny response from the person would wanted me to try it. I didn’t know how to interpret the data confidently myself but posted it anyway.

This issue comes up like once a year. There might be quite a bit of the answers I am looking for right in this very thread. Just haven’t had time to dig into this. I know for one this topic was beat to death over at gearsluts.

Thanks for the replies. I just did a search of the giant MPC Live thread on Gearslutz, and I found the post (and the replies) from June 2017 where someone did almost exactly the same test on his MPC Live that I did (micing up the pads and recording both the pad strike and the MPC output to a stereo recorder, then measuring the delay between them).

And guess what. He worked out that his latency from striking a pad to the sample playing back was....

17ms

(= exactly what I measured.)

Here's the page about it:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electro ... st12677594

I searched two years of follow up posts, but no-one seemed to offer a solution. Virtually all the comments about latency after that post have been about recording live audio tracks into the MPC, which is a slightly different thing. Although, since it's a digital system that uses input and output buffers just like a DAW, then all these latency issues would be related.

It lends weight to my assumption that the output buffer is too big. Not something that Akai are ever likely to hold their hands up to.

Akai could maybe implement a "low-latency mode" that temporarily switched off the effects processing and anything else processor intensive, then dropped the buffer size down to 1/3 of it's current size. That'd be nice... but would also be a bit of an admission that they messed up slightly.

Would love to see any Live owners repeat the test I did earlier this year and post their results.

I realise it's perfectly possible to do great work on an MPC Live even with that amount of latency. I just found it a bit of a turnoff.

Strange I did just as you and seen it reported to being down to 9.xx ms after the last update. Still a lot but almost half what you were getting.
I did see the numbers you were seeing but more in the 13-15 range, minor I know but that was before even 2.1 was launched,

I really wish I could find the inner clock systems stuff, I know I’m not imaging it. Iirc correctly, thier test had it between the 5000 and 4000 in terms of audio latency buts it’s been over a year since that stuff was a big deal. I also see no mention of the offset issue and how it pertains to this issue, as it seemed to really calm people down. It was right after that there were a few in depth analysis of the machine, which I cannot find either.

It's possible that Akai improved the latency with v2.7 - I let my Live go before I tried 2.7.

I use Live, 2500 and 3000 all for finger drumming, there is no latency problems unless you #1 cut your samples badly #2 have problems with your pad senisitvity or pad hardware #4 you are monitoring is adding latency, try direct or headphones from mpc #3 pad sensors gone. the live is not my fave mpc but it responds fine and the pads are better than others. in software/controller mode if your computer is not setup well you can introduce some latency. each mpc feels a little different to drum on based on the angle of the pads (mpc live is flat while most others on slight angle but all different there too and how solid the machines frame is the ones with a heavy metal chassis i prefer to drum on than lives plastic. the play back midi jitter is best on the 3000 almost perfect, 2500 is terrible and live is ok. my 2cents

Caustic Yoda wrote:I use Live, 2500 and 3000 all for finger drumming, there is no latency problems unless you #1 cut your samples badly #2 have problems with your pad senisitvity or pad hardware #4 you are monitoring is adding latency, try direct or headphones from mpc #3 pad sensors gone. the live is not my fave mpc but it responds fine and the pads are better than others. in software/controller mode if your computer is not setup well you can introduce some latency. each mpc feels a little different to drum on based on the angle of the pads (mpc live is flat while most others on slight angle but all different there too and how solid the machines frame is the ones with a heavy metal chassis i prefer to drum on than lives plastic. the play back midi jitter is best on the 3000 almost perfect, 2500 is terrible and live is ok. my 2cents

Interesting.

I prefer the MPC 2500 timing and latency over the new MPCs. But I'm starting to see each MPC serves a purpose. I use the MPCX for trap music only. Slow and fast repeated hi-hats by using note repeat. If you try to do that by hand you will see that the clock is drifting out of time plus with added latency makes it almost impossible to play stuff by hand. I'm not sure what kind of style of music you're making but the latency issue has been here and has not really gotten that much better. especially not good with disc streaming. Hopefully they design some type of special midi driver

Also discovery with timing (applies to 2.7 firmware). When changing the internal 960 PPQ resolution I realized that my fast hi-hats (32nd) don't sound as cha cha as much. if i put it on 96 the sound of sequence sounds a lot more glued together.

i didnt update the live to 2.7, the 2500 has horrible midi jitter or drift, it wont stay on the grid over a couple of minutes tracking out, worse on jjos than akai os, the live 2.6 and under has tighter timing on play back than the 2500 ever could, the roger linn mpcs have super tight timing on playback the rest not so much

Cockdiesel wrote:No, I can “finger drum” just fine on my unit. I’d have to dig pretty deep but this issue has been explored and even all the testing you mention done. Here’s one post I found, although it’s going to take some time to find more links to the websites and the testing.

Dan from Akai here. So this issue he's talking about has been discovered by a user on gearslutz, and we've been able to reproduce the issue on some units. Indeed it doesn't appear to be all units, which explains why some users see it, but others don't.

there are actually 3 separate issues, which was why it was so hard to chase down. There was a drift over time (3-4 minutes) that reset itself when you hit play, there was a jitter between notes, which I suspect the thread starter is talking about, and an offset that wouldnt remain consistent on start. again, not everyone had these issues, only a select few. The good news is all of these issues are fixable, and have been addressed in the next release, v2.1. it's scheduled to be released soon, probably within the next 7 days.

Has this been reliably fixed for all MPC Live boxes via firmware? or was this found to be an actual hardware production line flaw?

I have a buddy who claims that despite the firmware updates, his MPC Live is essentially unusable with any other gear (still) due to the MIDI sync problems. I'm not saying it's possible he could be overlooking a setting, but I know he's experienced enough with complex MIDI setups to trust he isn't just PEBKAC'in.

Coming from the 4K I can confirm there is NO latency on my MPC ONE.. it's tight AF!

Not sure if anyone mentioned, but to me it seems your sample isn't chopped at the very start of the wave..

If this is not the case (not even sure if you use samples or talking bout midi latency..) get your unit fixxed!! its def your unit.

MPC 2500 timing and latency

Funny, this unit is the worst MPC ever in terms of latency/timing technically. And to me personally also sound + pad wise.

Used it one day, immediatly sold it. 5K might be even worse, but man those were shitty boxes.. cracky pots after 1 year use.

What MPCs did you test...? The good thing about it is JJOS + bigscreen option.

If you don't provide your method, you cannot say "there is latency" or "there is NO latency" because the latency is very subjective without measured values.
Some persons will not notice anything and some others are more sentitive.

he MPC Live is less like a hardware sampler/drum machine of old, and more like a laptop and interface running a VI, with everything happening in software. So it’s no surprise there’s some latency... I just never imagined there’d be this much. No fx running on it for these tests, it’s literally one pad with a snare sample on it.

I definitely feel the latency... that’s what got me here.

Total bullshit! How did you even come up with this crap? LOOOL!!! pads + timing is TIGHT AF on this new akai OSés. What reference do youhave? What MPC you comparing with?? What a bunch of total bullshit man, I can't believe you just said this out of NOTHING.

and more like a laptop and interface running a VI, with everything happening in software. So it’s no surprise there’s some latency

dude, it's all the same. It's hardware + software. And it's better and faster codes than ever before, go wash your mouth! Clown!

i didnt update the live to 2.7, the 2500 has horrible midi jitter or drift, it wont stay on the grid over a couple of minutes tracking out, worse on jjos than akai os, the live 2.6 and under has tighter timing on play back than the 2500 ever could, the roger linn mpcs have super tight timing on playback the rest not so much

MPC4000 has the tightest MIDI/timing ever, of all MPC's ever released. Not only of all MPC's, but almost of all MIDI hardware ever created in the world... you can check the timing table online to find it in the top 3 tightest clocks ever created on this planet.

I very focussed on timing, and my ONE isn't any worse vs my 4K. It never misses a hit, and the pads have more response, but thats prolly cuz its brand new.. not sure what will happen in some years.

But I'm starting to see each MPC serves a purpose. I use the MPCX for trap music only. Slow and fast repeated hi-hats by using note repeat. If you try to do that by hand you will see that the clock is drifting out of time plus with added latency makes it almost impossible to play stuff by hand. I'm not sure what kind of style of music you're making but the latency issue has been here and has not really gotten that much better. especially not good with disc streaming. Hopefully they design some type of special midi driver

Also discovery with timing (applies to 2.7 firmware). When changing the internal 960 PPQ resolution I realized that my fast hi-hats (32nd) don't sound as cha cha as much. if i put it on 96 the sound of sequence sounds a lot more glued together.

I can't believe my eyes man. So much bullcrap in 1 post...

Resolution 960 ppq or 96 ppq DOESNT MATTER WHEN YOU QUANTIZE. --> BUSTED.

low and fast repeated hi-hats by using note repeat. If you try to do that by hand you will see that the clock is drifting out of time

Dude... really? you know almost all mpcs have note repeat.. right? no.. apparently you don't.. also.. it doesnt matter if you play it, or just sequence it.. the same latency should (NOT) occur.

Hopefully they design some type of special midi driver

internal hats have NOTHING TO DO WITH MIDI TIMING.

godd please let this kids dissapear from this once beautiful community. you kids are ignorant AF and have ZERO clue what you are talking about.

NOTHING of what you just said makes sense whatsoever.

JESUS.

I should unregister from this crap over here.. people on here are totally fckn drunk!