Arrangement View on mpc live 2

Hello everyone, I've owned the MPC Live 2 for some time and I'm really impressed and it's fun. However, it is very difficult without a good arrangement. Why doesn't that actually exist? The box has so much potential! Why do I have to sit down at a computer first when the MPC Live 2 can also show all of this on the display. I find it very difficult to deal with and time audio files. Ideas for a complete song structure come up quickly and that's how I want to record them in the mpc. Please give the MPC series a well-deserved arrangement view so that you can work with it without a computer.

Best regards
Andrew

The reason it doesn't exist is simply because the MPC range has never had an arrangement view, for over 30 years it was always built around the concept of individual sequences chained together in song mode, that was the MPC way, one of its unique characteristics. Perhaps Akai will find a way to re-work the MPC to accommodate this, but it is possible that Akai might believe that if you want arrangement view, you can buy the Force instead (which IMO is the better machine ATM). Ironically lots of Force users are now wanting an MPC-style song mode.

There is an ongoing concern that the MPC is losing its unique identity, as Akai keep piling on more and more DAW-like features, more workstation features etc etc, trying to appeal to larger audiences who are coming from a DAW background, but ultimately I don't think you should pander to that audience too much. What is so appealing about the MPC to those users in the first place? The stability? The unique workflow? All those things are starting to disappear with each new firmware, as the MPC gains more bugs and bloat.

The Force's "arrange" view is currently a misnomer because you can't really arrange things in it. It's for recording or bouncing down one big "sequence", but after you've recorded into it, there are no structural blocks to move around i.e. arrange. (apart from audio track sections) The arrangement does not contain clips but plain MIDI notes.

I guess what people want is something like Ableton's arrangement (which DOES have clips as MIDI note containers and organizing blocks) or even Reason's song mode blocks, which is in a way a combination of MPC song mode and an arrangement at the same time.

It's not like there aren't enough example implementations for Akai to copy. They just made a half-assed "minimum viable product" first attempt with the Force. Maybe a version 2 will come, who knows.

HouseWithoutMouse wrote:The Force's "arrange" view is currently a misnomer because you can't really arrange things in it. It's for recording or bouncing down one big "sequence", but after you've recorded into it, there are no structural blocks to move around i.e. arrange. (apart from audio track sections) The arrangement does not contain clips but plain MIDI notes.

It's certainly not what most people were expecting, I agree the blocks concept would be far more useful. I think considering the amount of time it took from the initial NAMM 'coming soon' announcement (2 years later? I might be wrong), this would suggest it's not an easy one to implement and probably another reason why it may never see the light of day on the MPC.

That said, perhaps this was exactly what they had planned for the Force. At release the Force didn't have in any way to lay down a complete multitrack editable performance, nothing at all, purely a live performance machine, so the arrangement mode is definitely welcome in that respect. But yes, strictly speaking, not a proper arranger!

To me it doesn't look like it was really designed or planned that way, it's more like a technical compromise. They asked themselves, how can we add a clip launch session system like in Ableton, and a sort of an arrangement view without having to rewrite and probably break and have to fix large parts of existing code. It must share a lot of actual code structures with MPC to retain compatibility and a single codebase, which I assume there is behind the scenes.

I assume that the compromise and easiest possible technical solution to have an arrangement view was to have one "scene" as the arrangement - this extra scene can be seen in the launch view as clips by turning on the option. This means that the Force's arrangement "tracks" are actually clips under the hood (with some automation related enhancements), and since there is no clips-inside-clips structure, there cannot be clips inside tracks either. And the set of Force clips on the same Force track is actually a set of MPC Tracks using the same MPC Program. And there is only one single huge MPC Sequence in a Force project.

In short, the Force is not a big rewrite and totally new code, it's a reorganization of technical MPC programs and sequence elements, with a special user interface where everything has been shuffled around and relabelled. Or at least that's the easiest way I can think of, to start with MPC and come up with Force while maintaining a level of internal compatibility and a single codebase.

MPC-Tutor wrote:Ironically lots of Force users are now wanting an MPC-style song mode.

Uh... no we don't!

But I do wish the Force Arrange mode contained MIDI into clips/blocks that could be "arranged", as mentioned. I said it years ago and I'll say it again: Reason's Blocks mode or Ableton's approach would have been near perfect on Force. I'd love to see that on MPC.

I would be happy with a slightly enhanced song mode, that -

- continued playing the song when switching to other screens (so not a "mode", really);
- allowed for tracks to be muted per song step;
- supported basic copy/paste operations.

It doesn't need to be God's gift to sequencer musicians (sequencists?), just something a little more powerful than the afterthought we have today.

I used to find the sequence and song mode of the MPC very difficult to grasp, not in theory but practically. I just couldnt focus and just think segments.

Today I find it to be the most straightforward, logical, musical and speedy way to make a full track with all the small details and transitions between parts that i struggled in a linear sequencer.

MPC sequences are the most similar to the way song-writers work in songwriting sessions, when they share a project between them and take upon the task of each writing either chorus, verse, bridge etc and then put it all together.

So, instead of any revolutionary changes like linear daw-like sequencing, I look forwards to all other sorts of workflow improvements but always based on the MPC classic principles. Something i would love is a better mixer, better mix buses, being able to rename them etc, changing the order of tracks. Things like that

Please give the MPC series a well-deserved arrangement view so that you can work with it without a computer.

You're not talking to AKAI/InMusic, nobody here works for them or has any influence over what AKAI does.

There is already a thread about feature requests and suggestion:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=187870

It must share a lot of actual code structures with MPC to retain compatibility and a single codebase, which I assume there is behind the scenes.

It was more like "Oh shit, our product isn't selling despite a $500 discount, quickly, Shivansh, cobble together something so we can claim there is an Arranger". Very little thought went into the Force 'Arranger'. And LOL, 6 markers maximum for an entire song?

trekker wrote:Hello everyone, I've owned the MPC Live 2 for some time and I'm really impressed and it's fun. However, it is very difficult without a good arrangement. Why doesn't that actually exist? The box has so much potential! Why do I have to sit down at a computer first when the MPC Live 2 can also show all of this on the display. I find it very difficult to deal with and time audio files. Ideas for a complete song structure come up quickly and that's how I want to record them in the mpc. Please give the MPC series a well-deserved arrangement view so that you can work with it without a computer.

Best regards
Andrew

Why not get a Force? It's still like 75% MPC. It has the same 128 tracks but each track can have up to 999 clips, plus the "Arranger" which is not perfect, but for most music it gets the job done.

I just wouldn't start the song there. I would use the clips as a "pre-arranger" by using the rows of clips as parts for the songs (Intro-verse1-hook..etc). Then once I got a bunch of clip rows which is called Launch Scenes on the Force, I'll go to the Arranger & just record the scenes in the order that I want (the limit is 999 bars so even Richard Wagner would be happy), then you can bounce that to audio & erase the Arrangement & do it over to make something different or keep it, but just move the Arrangers start point after the first arrangement or you can Save it as a new Project. Also, after you made an long arrangement you can copy & paste each of the Arranger's Tracks as song-clips (may be tedious if you have many tracks but it's an option) then erase the Arranger & do it again but this you can record different Automation like muting tracks/pads, moving the crossfader, the macro knobs (the macro's on the force is way more advance than the MPC).

What type of music do you make & how long have you been using the MPC?

MPC-Tutor wrote:Ironically lots of Force users are now wanting an MPC-style song mode.

What your definition of "lots"? What's your sources?

MPC-Tutor wrote:Ironically lots of Force users are now wanting an MPC-style song mode.

Uh... no we don't!

EnochLight wrote:But I do wish the Force Arrange mode contained MIDI into clips/blocks that could be "arranged", as mentioned. I said it years ago and I'll say it again: Reason's Blocks mode or Ableton's approach would have been near perfect on Force. I'd love to see that on MPC.

I agree with you Enoch, why would we need that on the Force when we could use the 999 Launch Scene to do pretty much the samething? Unless I'm missing something about the MPC song mode

Also, there's still much room improvement for the Arranger. Hopefully Akai will take your advice.
I think Akai knew from the start that would have to make 2 Force's. Mk1 is just the test baby, which sucks for us now, but it'll be way better for us later!

(I hope )

HouseOfLatin wrote:I used to find the sequence and song mode of the MPC very difficult to grasp, not in theory but practically. I just couldnt focus and just think segments.

Today I find it to be the most straightforward, logical, musical and speedy way to make a full track with all the small details and transitions between parts that i struggled in a linear sequencer.

MPC sequences are the most similar to the way song-writers work in songwriting sessions, when they share a project between them and take upon the task of each writing either chorus, verse, bridge etc and then put it all together.

So, instead of any revolutionary changes like linear daw-like sequencing, I look forwards to all other sorts of workflow improvements but always based on the MPC classic principles. Something i would love is a better mixer, better mix buses, being able to rename them etc, changing the order of tracks. Things like that

+1

HouseOfLatin wrote:I used to find the sequence and song mode of the MPC very difficult to grasp, not in theory but practically. I just couldnt focus and just think segments.

Today I find it to be the most straightforward, logical, musical and speedy way to make a full track with all the small details and transitions between parts that i struggled in a linear sequencer.

MPC sequences are the most similar to the way song-writers work in songwriting sessions, when they share a project between them and take upon the task of each writing either chorus, verse, bridge etc and then put it all together.

So, instead of any revolutionary changes like linear daw-like sequencing, I look forwards to all other sorts of workflow improvements but always based on the MPC classic principles. Something i would love is a better mixer, better mix buses, being able to rename them etc, changing the order of tracks. Things like that

+2
also, song mode allow us to create single small chunks, glue them together, export em as sequence, write something on top of the new seq, duplicate it, modify the copy, back to song mode, glue the copy with the other one, export again, write other stuff on top, rinse and repeat. i find this workflow unique and inspiring. one of the reasons i love mpc's.

MPC-Tutor wrote:The reason it doesn't exist is simply because the MPC range has never had an arrangement view, for over 30 years it was always built around the concept of individual sequences chained together in song mode, that was the MPC way, one of its unique characteristics. Perhaps Akai will find a way to re-work the MPC to accommodate this, but it is possible that Akai might believe that if you want arrangement view, you can buy the Force instead (which IMO is the better machine ATM). Ironically lots of Force users are now wanting an MPC-style song mode.

There is an ongoing concern that the MPC is losing its unique identity, as Akai keep piling on more and more DAW-like features, more workstation features etc etc, trying to appeal to larger audiences who are coming from a DAW background, but ultimately I don't think you should pander to that audience too much. What is so appealing about the MPC to those users in the first place? The stability? The unique workflow? All those things are starting to disappear with each new firmware, as the MPC gains more bugs and bloat.

The current range does have an arrange view in controller mode.
You can see all lanes together edit Mutes etc and select tracks from that screen for editing.

That's what I'd like to see on the shift/main menu standalone. I just want an overview of my tracks in relation to each other.

I've held off selling my older mpcs. Not sold on the new line.