MIDI/Transport control/sync for continuous electronic set

Alright, so I’m looking to do a much better version of my old electronic music set up for shows making use of my and potentially a friend/friends MPCs (and potentially additional gear) for a continuous electronic music set where beats are triggered to come in on cue so everything is seemless - no time wasted getting something synced up in cue, no potential for slight differences in timing, etc. I want to do this without a computer. I want an MPC to control master tempo, send the play trigger(s) to devices such as other MPC with transport controls, etc. This would be 2-3 MPCs, and likely at least one multitimbral keyboard/synth, if not several that’s sequenced by the MPC(s). Potentially a few monotimbral synths.

So, how my old (ancient) set up worked for this: I used an Electribe Mx (one with the tubes), a Kaoss pad, a Kaossilator, and a 4 channel Kaoss mixer that had a built in mini kaoss pad I so wish they’d revive with proper midi control, and used Ableton to send midi data out to the everything so it was always in sync. The hitch is the Kaoss Pad and Kaossilator didn’t have transport controls - you had a saved scene or something to that effect and 4 sample pads, triggerable by midi note (which I had set up to be triggered by a USB controller with buttons set at different quantize intervals - basically once one note was engaged until no notes were engaged, the notes for the other pads functioned as an on off). So I had all these parts of songs recorded available on the Kaoss pad and Kaossilator, then the electribe told to start playing, and I had the ability to just switch to the next song part once it was started. All of the parts of a larger “song” were in key or a compatible key, because of what they were initially played/recorded on, and then I used compatible keys/modes (circle of fifths) to harmonically align everything so I wasn’t playing stuff that wasn’t in key. I likely recorded at a specified tempo (though the kaoss pads I believe warped the loops to match the master tempo if it was different), and know I did use the Electribe to slow down or speed up the tempo when necessary (it was always playing even if cut and the mac was synced to it). That all got fed into the Kaoss mixer, so every device at least had a master kaoss effect available - and I was able to use typical DJ mixer faders, controls, and I think there were track mute and lo/mid/hi cuts. So basically outside of messing up my timing engaging effects or otherwise improvising played notes, everything was on time and in key. It was probably my best work for several years, and wish the mac I recorded those shows on and (to give you an idea how long ago this was) MySpace music didn’t lose all of my shared audio in some sort of, I’d assume, bottom dollar server migration.

So anyway, fast forward, I’ve gotten a lot better at composing music, my friends that I’d be working with potentially are all better too, and we have good professional gear. While that Kaoss mixer got stolen when it was already on it’s last legs (I had like 3 track volume faders soldered to always be on 100% because the faders died). I’d like to start again, and my friend(s) would likely be interested as well, doing those types of continuous and partially improvised sets, with a lot better skills and more professional instruments.

So, what I’m hoping is I can grab my 4 channel DJ mixer, and create sets of projects on the MPCs containing sequences to use similarly to the “songs” on my Electribe/pad triggered recorded sequences on the Kaossilator and Kaoss pad. (The MPCs even have that fairly limited X/Y thing and my keys has that touch strip that could be arpeggiated if I wanted to get into Kaoss Pad/Kaossilator territory). I’m hopeful I can use my MPC keys to set the master tempo, and keep the other MPCs in sync and triggered to start playing at the right time. Then from there I‘m free to choose how long a sequence plays, mix it with in time sequences in the same or compatible keys, from 1-2 other MPCs and other gear sequenced by both my MPC Keys and potentially my friends’ non-MPC instruments, and be free to improvise on top of any sequence, either from the MPCs using its tracks, or other devices, in addition to being able to control the strong structure, length of sequences, and so forth from the MPC. But I/we would really be able to do DJ style mixing and transitions with such a set up.

So, obviously tempo/syncing the tempo/making my/having my friends make songs/song pieces in compatible keys for harmonic mixing is all pretty straight forward. What isn’t to me is how to handle transport. That old electribe had either “songs” or “patterns”, which I could set up and just switch between and progress through without missing a beat. For lack of a better term my kaossilator and kaoss pad had phrase samples that stayed in sync with each other and were triggered by a single midi note, the timing of which was able to be used to sync seamlessly. So even though on those I had to load up a “scene” or set of samples from an SD card, I could easily do so while only the sound of the other devices/instruments were playing through the mixer. Then I could bring them in by playing a note quantized to trigger at the beginning of the next 4 bar sequence as defined by the mac/ableton, and unmuting on that mixer, adjusting the channel fader, or using the crossfader (as well as filter effects on the Kaoss Pad or mini KAOSS pad embedded in the mixer). It was great. It was easy to set up/take down and get on with life as well - obviously any additional devices beyond the MPCs would change that to some degree, as well as sub-mixers to accommodate if we’re already mixing 3-4 MPCs, but if I’m in the studio or got a larger gig, it’s one thing, if I’m playing some small show, probably just do my the MPCs.

So anyway for simplicities sake, say I’m using a DJ mixer to mix two MPCs, you can only run so many instances of plugins, you can only hold so many samples in memory, you’ve got to change patterns if your set isn’t a total bore. I can start the initial project of each on time. However, after I’m ready to swap from one of the MPCs projects to another, that MPC is no longer playing in sync with the first. So I then need to trigger its first sequence to start in time with the MPC that’s playing without fussing around trying to time it in cue?

That also brings up another issue - I think I need to either use a MPC in this setup that only had a single project or another device to send the start/play signals and sync - possibly a computer. Or none can be the master of any other, merely synced to external midi and capable of sending transport signals to start/stop the other on time without starting/stopping themselves. That Kaoss Pad and Kaossilator didn’t care about transport, and the electribe was playing the whole time. If I had one as a master, and it drops out because I’m loading a project, what happens to the slave? If said master were triggered to play, would it also screw with the slave’s transport? So I really think they either need an MPC reduced to only having one project loaded for the whole set/show set as a master, or they’ve just got to be open to receiving tempo sync and transport, and that be sent via another device operating as a master of 2-4 MPCs and other sequenced gear chained to those. I do technically have 3 MPCs, and my friend would have an MPC if we’re generally doing sets together, giving us 3 to utilize if I don’t want to drag around 3. I also have a novation circuit with transport controls, and my Roland Fantom has transport controls. My MX-49 may have transport controls (possibly easier than dragging around an MPC Keys, Live II, and MPC X around). My Aira Mixer has start and stop - but I don’t know how many MIDI channels I can have it send transport over or how to filter them so, when I bring in an MPC with a freshly loaded project, what it would do the MPC playing - and if I’d have to kind of be digging in the menus turning transport on/off. I have a 4 channel midi interface that MPCs detect, and I think a device for splitting a single midi source into several (though am not 100% sure on what it does/how it works). I think though, probably needs to be hosted by something that can send different signals to different midi routings (i.e. a computer or MPC, possibly the fantom - though I’d rather lug my MPC X around than that).

There’s got to be a way to do this, ideally without a computer. People look at electronic musicians differently when they see a laptop or computer (fairly or unfairly, somebody doing serato and using cue to sync a track prior to bringing it in over a mixer is doing more work to stay on beat than what I’m hoping to do here), and beyond that, I absolutely hate working on one for my hobby, I’m on a computer enough for work. So I hope somebody can school me on how such a setup would work. As far as the potential for other devices I mentioned, I figure they’d either be hosted by the MPCs over a powered USB hub or controlled by MIDI/CV from an MPC. As toy-ish as Kaoss Pads and the Kaossilator Pro was (in terms of lacking proper midi controlability ability to hold much pre-recorded or any truly sequenced content, and limit of 16 beat phrases/samples), I could even drive a computerless version of that set up from the Electribe and keep everything synced and coming in on beat at the appropriate time (so not like a bar into another devices 4 bars) with very little thought or much effort beyond reading a midi implementation chart.

So please, if anybody can help me wrap my head around how to accomplish this, I’d be very grateful.

even if you run one (MIDI) master clock continuously the other MPCs / sequencers will not start the next sequence without a start/continue command
(if you stop the previous sequence on them that is)
even if you trigger a start/continue command externally (from a pedal or a MIDI remote keyboard/controller) i'm not sure your slave MPCs will lock into the beat and start on the 1
so my best bet is to effectively stop the master MPC and restart it so everything else will follow suit

That's a whole lot to process but let me address what I can wrap my head around. What is this 4 out splitter you are talking about? I ask because the device I recommend may solve some of your issues. You may already have it by your description but I'm just guessing.

The device I'm referring to is called MidiHub. It can do very advanced message processing and filtering and
now some very interesting clock stuff. You can duplicate messages across every port or only to those ports desired. They just released an update that improves the clock functionality.

One cool thing you could do now is have the clock/play on MPC 2 triggered by a midi message at the end of a sequence on MPC 1. Example is you have a CC127 at value 34 at the very end of your sequence. Then you'd map MidiHub to send a Play message and clock, including BPM if you need, to a specific MPC whenever it receives CC127 at value 34.

And you can control many aspects of the clock with MIDI messages. You change BPMs on the fly, you can double or half the clock or divide it. You can nudge it forward or back. You can even automate the clock with an LFO if you want to get crazy. Then the cool part is you can do this across all ports or just some, or have different ports doing a whole other layer of signal processing.

I haven't personally used it as a Master Clock so I can't vouch for how rock solid it is handling clock while doing a bunch of funky things with clock messages. Many others users who do live sets professionally have integrated it well into their setups though. I know that you could do all those things you wish that you could do, but until you have everything hooked up with all your gear and running through your sets, one can only speculate how flawless it would be.


https://blokas.io/midihub/

SuperKonquer wrote:That's a whole lot to process but let me address what I can wrap my head around. What is this 4 out splitter you are talking about? I ask because the device I recommend may solve some of your issues. You may already have it by your description but I'm just guessing.

The device I'm referring to is called MidiHub. It can do very advanced message processing and filtering and
now some very interesting clock stuff. You can duplicate messages across every port or only to those ports desired. They just released an update that improves the clock functionality.

One cool thing you could do now is have the clock/play on MPC 2 triggered by a midi message at the end of a sequence on MPC 1. Example is you have a CC127 at value 34 at the very end of your sequence. Then you'd map MidiHub to send a Play message and clock, including BPM if you need, to a specific MPC whenever it receives CC127 at value 34.

And you can control many aspects of the clock with MIDI messages. You change BPMs on the fly, you can double or half the clock or divide it. You can nudge it forward or back. You can even automate the clock with an LFO if you want to get crazy. Then the cool part is you can do this across all ports or just some, or have different ports doing a whole other layer of signal processing.

I haven't personally used it as a Master Clock so I can't vouch for how rock solid it is handling clock while doing a bunch of funky things with clock messages. Many others users who do live sets professionally have integrated it well into their setups though. I know that you could do all those things you wish that you could do, but until you have everything hooked up with all your gear and running through your sets, one can only speculate how flawless it would be.


https://blokas.io/midihub/

Yeah, the two things I have aren’t that - though, whatever $164 euros is in dollars, may have to do that (hopefully my MPC could host it over USB). I’ve got a USB MIDI interface that I think could take one midi in and push transport signals it to all 4 on separate channels (or individually route via USB).

Side note: I take it there’s no way to program transport signals out from the MPC other than it’s own internal start/stop (which would also mean I can’t set it to start on the 1, so to speak).

The other I don’t recall exactly what it is, pre-MPC I had several keyboards and boxes, and what I wanted to do when I bought the thing is basically split out a keyboard’s signal such that I could play all of the boxes from a single keyboard so I wasn’t having to trudge all around the studio just to play different sounds. So I think it just split the signal out into several channels. Which, if transport could be programmed on the MPC but not trigger that same MPC (or I use a third MPC to program/send) then it would probably work.

In some dark corner somewhere I have a MOTU device scored from a goodwill that I was hoping to use as a master clock for my DAW as part of a prior set up as well as interface, but was never able to get the thing to work with my Mac. Maybe if I track that down, the drivers of the MPC would somehow accept that, but I still doubt there’s anything I could do re: transport I couldn’t do with a USB MIDI interface.

So that Midihub, seems like it might be capable of doing what I need, assuming it can be set up to convert the cc (or I’m sure any event - could probably be note C1 on channel 16 or something) into a play signal. Ideally I’d be able to host it as a USB midi interface/device on one of the MPCs, as it can be powered by the hub I use for my MPC. If you have this device, does your MPC recognize it? Being limited to MIDI over MIDI for this purpose is probably fine, but it would make it more useful as a general tool. Also, you’re one of its events that it can convert a midi event to is transport? Then finally does its editor run on Mac OS? I have a windows laptop I need a new power cable for that I could drag out, but I’m trying to get away from it.

More broadly, I’m not as concerned about driving tempo, basically I/we will be designing these tracks to be mixed with each other. It would be nice to do some speed up/slow downs - for one, sometimes a beat sounds better at 115 than 125, having some dynamics in timing beyond double and half time is helpful in keeping the music interesting, and slowly dropping it with sounds specifically made for that transition would probably be a cool effect (though of course, that could be done internally with a single sequence on one device, then drop to the tempo you need, and start mixing in the next part). So technically everything could run off its internal clock so long as the transport signals trigger them on beat and I/we pay attention to the tempo. I’ve run stuff that way before - after a number of bars, even if you get the transport perfect, sometimes things will slowly fall less and less in sync. That can be remedied by retriggering transport, just as it did I think with loops, or maybe patterns on an electribe, I don’t quite recall, but basically I knew any slip in timing would start being noticeable after 64 bars or whatever, so just automated the stop/play retrigger every 64 bars or whatever. The idea is basically that the main sequences/parts are going to have intros and outros that lend themselves to harmonic mixing, probably “main” sections specifically to mix with another box’s sound as well - so could easily create sequences intended to drop/increase the tempo.

One last thing with that in mind - so we’re absolutely sure there’s nothing in that event editor to trigger transport out without affecting the MPC sending its transport?

wavejockey wrote:even if you run one (MIDI) master clock continuously the other MPCs / sequencers will not start the next sequence without a start/continue command
(if you stop the previous sequence on them that is)
even if you trigger a start/continue command externally (from a pedal or a MIDI remote keyboard/controller) i'm not sure your slave MPCs will lock into the beat and start on the 1
so my best bet is to effectively stop the master MPC and restart it so everything else will follow suit

Yeah, appreciate the feedback. I know I could start/stop everything but something playing a sample, a loop, or a synth pad that I could trigger everything back into more easily, drop sound off into nothing but a drone then start dialing it back in after reseting transport on everything else. I’m kind of trying to avoid that, for one it’s still tough to get precise enough timing that it flows right in terms of how long the pad or drone, or even basic drum beat that would be easier to align timing manually with, but also, it takes away the variety I can have with the power of multiple MPCs being able to pull up different projects and relaunch on time effortlessly.

So let me ask you this - let’s say I forget about syncing the tempo between devices - even the whole master/slave concept. Every MPC is running off it’s global tempo which is either preset or adjusted to match the tempo, and set to receive transport from MIDI in. Every MPC has a MIDI in from a different MPC - Is there any way to send transport from an MPC without triggering its own transport? So I have one MPC playing its sequences - I load up a new project on the other MPC. Both’s tempo is set to 128 BPM. Can I either trigger on time somehow, or have a special sequence for when I’m ready to start transitioning to the next MPC’s beat that triggers a play transport signal to the second MPC without stopping and starting the MPC that’s actively playing its sequences? I know there’s that event editor but I’m not really sure how to use it; seems like that might be somewhere where that ability could be hiding.

If I did have to do start stop on all MPCs, but could make it short (say I lose the last beat of a sequence because of this - ideally I’d lose like a 64th note or something), I could have a third sound source that helps cover that up or aid in the transition. Or maybe score an old Kaoss pad and use a sequenced note to trigger one of its sample pads for the purposes of the transition - I mean I think I could fit 48 loops/samples of up to 16 bar length on one of those triggered by note, and set to the same tempo as what I’m playing. The MPCs are quite capable, but something low feature like that that doesn’t run off of transport but could still start/stop loops of the same tempo could be a useful bridge. So in that situation, I could have the sequence I’m mixing out of, trigger the sample pad on the Kaoss Pad In such a set up, I could basically have my MPC Keys playing the project I’m wanting to transition out of, then I trigger a 16 bar sample on the first beat of an outro sequence using a midi note. I start mixing in that sample on the DJ Mixer. I load up the project I want to mix into on my MPC Live II, then once I’m ready to start mixing that in, have the MPC Keys stop on the last beat it could reliably come back in from, and then it triggers play for both it and the MPC Live; I’m able to start bringing the MPC Live into the mix, and I drop out the MPC Keys and the 16 bar sample, and I’m into the MPC Live’s project’s sequences and at worst it sounds like I did a cut or something with MPC A’s sound most of which is covered up by the 16 bar sample. Barring everything else, would that at least be viable?

For perspective, here is an excellent video demonstration on how to do live techno with a Force and Novation Circuit.

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=217026

please refer here to know how it was done using a MPC one
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=215206&start=15

set your MPC to clock slave mode and enable MMC

send a locate 0 and then MMC start command, MPC will follow suit

MIDI [start] F0H / 11111010 will start the current sequence

When a receiver is synchronized to incoming Real Time messages (MIDI Sync mode), the receipt of a Start (FAH) or Continue (FBH) message does not start the sequence until the next Timing Clock (F8H) is received. The FA and F8 should be sent with at least 1 millisecond time between them so the receiver has time to respond. However, a receiver should be able to respond immediately to the first F8H after receiving the Start or Continue. Neither the transmitter nor the receiver advances during the interval between FA and F8. When the receiver is operating off of its internal clock, it may or may not start or stop when it receives an FA or FB.

Yes the MidiHub acts as a Midi Interface so you will see 4 USB ports in/out and 4 Din ports inside of the MPC. It is powered by the USB port so you can plug it directly into your MPC. The editor runs on MAC and Windows and I believe Linux. It has to be programmed by being connected to a computer but once you set it up it's plug and play and functions without a pc.

It's very configurable so you can actually map midi controls to practically every aspect of a pipe, which is a building block that handles different types of processing. In that way you can make it pseudo programmable on the fly, granted you mapped Midi controls to do so beforehand. It doesn't currently handle sysex but does all other types of messages.

both my old step sequencer the Sequentix P3 and my new one Sqaurp Hapax has the same feature. If you hit Play again, while the sequencer is already playing the Sequencer will send out a Midi Start out to all of the Midi Out's that have been configured to allow it. So I can stop my MPC while my Hapax is triggering synthesizers and my other drum machines are still running. I can load up a new Project and then you hit Play on your Hapax when you want the MPC to start up with the new project/sequence that you loaded.

The Hapax itself has been created for this very issue. It has 2 "Projects" and you can load one "Project" while the other is running. Choose which tracks on Project A is muted and which ones in Project B is muted, so you can "mix" between your two tracks using the individual mute's. Of course this is all Midi data. But the Hapax was specifically designed for you are seeking in regards to a continuous mix.

But our group was able to do live non stop techno/electro live sets back all the way in 2005 w/ the P3 and MPC 4000 with the same concept (Stop MPC while P3 is master and running other synths.. load next track in MPC and then start MPC remotely from P3 using shift Play)