Sample expansion vs synth plugin

I’m looking for pros/cons wrt choosing between a synth plug-in and an expansion of samples including that same synth. The plug-in is more flexible than sampled presets but then again the sample expansion for less money includes sounds from many other synths.

What factors would you consider?

Oh, I love talking about this sh1t

I guess the biggest factor is the sound you are going for. I'm a synth guy, I more than enough hardware synths, some VSTi's and there are synths in the MPC I lean on a lot. I have set up Banks on my Novation Launch Control for the OPX4, MiniD, and Jura, and the more a study these, the more unique sounds I get (I need to set up the Odyssey, but I've yet to come up with a plan to map that), their flexibility, and adaptation to subtle changes, make them a long term investment in time and more valuble to me. And being integrated into the MPC is such a bonus. But I don't touch the other synths, apart from Electric and Drumsynth occasionally. I love reaching for the synth parameters to make changes makes things sit and feel differently, before reaching for effects to make things sound better.

If it's a synth sound you are after, I would always get a softsynth that models a synthesizer over a sample of an of a synthesizer. And I've always got enough to play with to wait for Black Friday or other opportunity's. I've stopped buying VST effects for my DAW, but the clipper will get picked up next time on sale. I rarely use presets on a synth, and a sample of a synth is more baked in, it's already not your sound before you 've started.

For percussion of real sounds, I have stacks of options in VSTi's (Nearly all of Addictive Drums, and XO, Shimmer/Shake/Strike, some Latin set ups for Kontact). So I'd prefer to create my own loops. for the MPC, with all the tools my DAW has. These VSTi's have better dynamics and more options than the MPC sample sets. But if I didn't have these, I think sampled percussion and kits are probably a good shout for an expansion pack.

For real world sounding instruments, I just don't see the dynamics and and authenticity being available in the MPC. This is fine for lot's a genres, If you're just looking for some chord comping a piano expansion is probably a good choice. But again I have other good options and would rather create in a VST in my DAW and sample as a loop, than come up with in the MPC. And there are so many free options available now, like Spite Fire Labs

https://labs.spitfireaudio.com/

Then there's acoustic modelling (Electric in the MPC kid of thing). I would love Pianoteq for pianos, keys, vibes over sampled options. I have Samplemodelling's Brass Audio Modelling's Cello (I will expand this some day), and and I think this is more my preferred way to get real sounding sounds than stacks of samples trying to get the same realism with less flexibilty. I have Chromophone, if Objekt ever became available as a VSTi I would be all over that.

So yeah, always synths over samples for me. Sample the sounds you make and find, leave the synthesizers to synthesis. I'd rather invest in something with longevity, than keep buying lots of a small treats, that fall short eventually.

Does it have to be a binary choice? Why not get both?

I can only speak for my own expansions, but my synth expansions use a particular synth purely as a basis for further exploration, so I'll be adding additional sample layers, utilising MPC unique features (MPC filters, lfo, FX etc) to further shape sounds beyond anything that might be possible in the original synth alone, so my idea is that I'm creating something more unique and personal, a sound designer's own take on things giving you instruments you'd never get otherwise.

If someone released an 808 expansion that featured beautifully recorded and designed 808 sounds that go way beyond anything you could get elsewhere would you think 'nah, I'm good with DrumSynth, it's more flexible' or would you consider also grabbing the 808 expansion for the extra sonic options it adds to your library, even if the kits themselves have less editing options? This way you have DrumSynth for general workhorse stuff, the 808 expansion for its unique character.

Assuming the expansions in question are of high quality, I'm personally of the opinion that you consider any or all options, budget allowing (unless you find too many options a hinderance) and view each option based on what it might adds to your creative flow.

Thanks for such interesting and contrasting views! I’m fairly new to samplers so I will try both for now and see how things play out.

As Tutor says, get a balance of both. As you are new, if you you are 100% inside the MPC, then picking up free VSTi's won't really help you so much, unless you are happy doing some processing in the computer before hand. As you can find kits you like for free and and sample them. But having some kits already accessible is going to have you hit the ground running. He also mentions Pianos, and there are now stacks of free pianos (Addictive Keys Demo, Spitfire Labs Soft), but having sounds like these pre-set up in an MPC is going to get you going.

With synth sounds sampled synths are going to be good for bread and butter synth sounds, pads, basses, but be limited. and if you especially like the 80's vibe (which I don't because that's my era, but has become much of the sound) then you are going to find stuff you like. But if that is what you are after, then the Jura Synth based on the Juno is a no brainer. It's a really easy synth to learn, it doesn't do super amazing sounds, but it's also hard to get a bad sound out of it. Junos were known for their wide sweet spots. And playing with these parameters will have you find unexpected vibes all over, and pass these through some effects and then Gems pop up all over the place. It can do bases, but pads, leads and arps are it's strong point. (only get this on sale as it starting price is too heavy)

The mini-D is great too, the original was only one voice (monophonic, one note at a time), but the plug in is up to 4 voices (Polyphonic). It's great for basses, but also does leads and simple but big chords. It's not as easy to get your head around as the Jura, but still easy.

Bassline is a nice little synth and does what it's called. They are different basses that the Mini-D, more like a 303s half brother, and is easy to get good sounds out of. Between these two you have a good rang of basses, unless you are looking for more out there sounds.

Odyssey is a bit harder to tame, and has a different vibe, it's easy to take wrong turns, but it's free so the presets are worth starting from.

Tubesynth has a some great sound pads, and leads that cut through. It's more versatile than the Jura, but has a more modern VST sound to it (nothing crazy). I tend to over look it and then when I check it out, wonder why. It's nicely velocity sensitive, has some nice drive and saturation built and sounds good with post processing.

So as far as sub-tractive synths go, I think it's worth sticking focusing on these before going for any samples of subtractive synths. Kind of spoilt for choice there already for those types of synths

Solina is a string synthesizer, you won't get realistic strings, but 70's space style strings, bad sci-fi and classic dad prog-rock. The same with the mellotron, if you are going for dad-rock sounds, it's pretty good.

Hype is a weird one. It's the synth that when I hear, I do a little sick in the back of my mouth. Some swear by it, I uninstalled it.

Now the most powerful and scariest synth that is capable of some really creative FM sound is the OPX4. If you push it too far, it's get ugly and nasty, not in a good way. In fact it has 2 parameters (FM filtering and FM Shaping) built in just to de-uglify the sounds. It's Matrix makes it a super flexible FM synth, even though it's just 4 operators, it's modulation routing borders on insane, it has built in filters (not typical of an FM making it quite modern)and it 3 layers of FX going into global. It's super flexible, capable of a huge range of sounds. But Editing the presets can leave you perplexed, as you have to track down what is doing what. And learning building the sounds from the ground up, is an education itself. There are some really beautiful presets, I love it's pads, organs and plucks and evolving soundscapes. It's bass presets are nasty, but it's capable of good basses. If there is one synth that would benefit from switching off all the FX to preview, it's this one, as there are some nice ones drowned in a sickly mess (especially the keys).

I forgot Electric, which is a mdoeling synth of the electric pianos, rhodes, wurlitzer and pianet. As it's a modelling synth, you can tweak the sounds onces you have you midi in and find more of a vibe. Is it the best sounding electric piano, no, but it's very usable, and unless you are nuts about these sounds (and some justifiably are) then it's well worth exploring and putting through amp effects, the phaser pedals and auto wahs. One user said they only used it for short percussive electric sounds and not as an electric keys at all. So that's worth playing with, especially with arps and patterns. Part of the reason they may have said this, as it also benefits from a sustain pedal, which is how you'd play it. Mine is an off on pedal, if you don't have ones and want to play with the longer more sustain dreamy notes, then draw a modulation in to start just after the beginning of a bar, and turn off just at the end (or when ever you go into the next key/chord) this is generally the technique behind the pedal.

If you like electric then the stage electric piano is the MPC's best version of a Rhodes and Wulitzer.

I don't think he was asking for particular plugin recommendations, more about the pros/cons of getting a synth 'emulation' (e.g. jura) vs a sample expansion containing samples from the same source synth (e.g. a juno sample expansion).

i'll give a simple less wordy answer: its much easier to preview the plug in sounds. you can also do more editing with the plug ins. the expansion keygroups use up much more space. sometimes you'll find yourself loading a whole big multi layer multi sample keygroup for just a pluck or a chord or two, but you still have all the rest of it taking up ram.
and then there is the process of removing a keygroup if you decide you dont want to use it. you have to delete the program and THEN remember to purge the samples. god forbid you already saved the project and want to delete a keygroup after...youll have to delete the project files on by one

jaymack wrote:and then there is the process of removing a keygroup if you decide you dont want to use it. you have to delete the program and THEN remember to purge the samples.

Or quicker version: load the keygroup, play with it to hear it in action. If you don't like it, hit 'undo'. No need to delete + purge.

the expansion keygroups use up much more space.

This is dependent on the plugin or expansion. For example if you need a 'pluck' from Studio Strings, you give up 31% of ram, 25% if you use Fabric XL. Most of my instruments use between 1-5% of ram.

Most of Akai's acoustic expansions are huge RAM hogs and definitely don't need to be, as many of them are using minimal samples. Basically each plugin instance seems to use up a fixed quota of RAM, regardless of the patch loaded.

I do agree that plugins tend to be more flexible (an imbalance which Akai could address if they added more features to keygroups), but again, if it sounds like crap then who cares how flexible the editing is

To be clear, I'm not saying Akai's stuff sounds like crap, most of it is decent and it's a no-brainer to have it in your MPC (assuming you get a deal...). I'm just making the case for not limiting yourself to 'just' Akai plugins when there's a whole world of expansions out there from third parties that offer alternative sounds (e.g. different sounding pianos, unique takes on a classic synth, experimental sound design, uniquely recorded 'classics', rare instruments etc).

They might not be flexible but can already sound amazing out of the box. (but flexible editing is also great - again, I don't think this is in any way binary).

Of course, I am a touch biased but TBH I wouldn't not make my content unless I thought I was offering a worthwhile alternative. And I'm also not just talking about my stuff, there's a few other guys out there making really interesting expansions, like Cubilas, marco scherer etc

Neodymium wrote:As Tutor says, get a balance of both. … the Jura Synth based on the Juno is a no brainer.

I took your advice and got Jura. Also bought some samples for variety (MPC samples Instrument Bundle for the piano and bass in particular.)

Any recommendations for guitar samples. Including some raunchy roaring distorted electric guitars but also some strumming and acoustic?

I can't recommend anything on the MPC side of things, as I don't use any sampled instruments at all. I'd sample myself playing in my DAW and then send to the MPC as loops.

But on the VST side. These are free from Amplesounds
Acoustic https://www.amplesound.net/en/pro-pd.asp?id=7
P Bass https://www.amplesound.net/en/pro-pd.asp?id=19

And free from Spitefire Labs
Electric guitars - https://labs.spitfireaudio.com/packs/electric-guitars
Peel Guitars - https://labs.spitfireaudio.com/packs/peel-guitar