Sample Edit broken?

moonlake wrote:I got it to work:

In Program Edit, I set Slice to All. It was set to Pad.

I dont get it though.

EDIT;
the manual on page 237

Important: For Pad Loop to work, you must (1) set the Sample Play field (in the Global tab) to Note On instead of One Shot and (2) set the Slice field (in the first Samples tab) to Pad instead of All or a slice number.

is contradicting this...

I'll try to formulate facts as atomic statements

• Keygroup Programs and Drum Programs can have a number of Pads, each with one or more Layers.
• A Sample can have a number of Slices, and there is a special slice "All", meaning all of the sample, the whole sample.
• Each Slice in a Sample, including the All Slice, can have Loop parameters.
• Each Layer in a Pad can be assigned to a Sample. Otherwise it is unassigned and cannot make sound. This is shown in the Program's (Track in MPC 3) editing page in the box titled SAMPLE on the SAMPLES tab.
• Each Layer in a Pad can be assigned to use a snippet of audio material from the assigned Sample through either (1) the Pad's (Layer's) own slice which is unique to that Pad/Layer, or (2) the Sample's All Slice, or (3) one of the Sample's numbered Slices. This is shown in the Keygroup or Drum Program's (Track in MPC 3) editing view in the SLICE selection on the SAMPLES tab. I has possible values: Pad, All or one of the numbers 1, 2, 3, ...
• In Program (Track) edit, you can edit the loop information of Pad's (Layer's) own slice, if you select SLICE: Pad.
• In Program (Track) edit, you can also edit the loop information of the Sample's All Slice, if you select SLICE: All. Editing this affects all Programs which use the same Sample's All Slice.
• In Program (Track) edit, you can also edit the loop information of the Sample's Slice, if you select SLICE: (slice number) 1, 2, etc. Editing this affects all Programs which use the same Sample's numbered Slice.
• In Sample Edit, you can edit the loop information for a Sample's numbered Slices and the All Slice.
• In Sample Edit, you cannot edit information stored in Pads.
• If you edit loop information such as loop end point in Program (Track) Edit, the changes are not reflected in live audio playback in realtime. At least in Akai Force version 3.2.3 that I'm using.
• If you edit loop information such as loop end point in Sample Edit, the changes ARE reflected in live audio playback in realtime.
• A Pad can have looping enabled or not.
• In order for a Pad to be switched to looping-enabled, it must be set to Note On, not One-Shot LAYER PLAY mode on the GLOBAL tab.
• If your Pad is set the use the Pad's own slice, and not one of the numbered Slices of a Sample, and not the All Slice of a Sample either, and you play the Pad, then adjusting Sample-specific loop points in Sample Edit obviously has no effect, because Sample Edit does not edit information in any Pad. Pads and Layers belong to Programs.
• If you want to be able to edit a playing sound's loop information, like for example when trying to find a click-free sustain loop, you cannot have the Layer's SLICE box set to Pad, it has to be either All or one of the Slice numbers.
• The information for a Sample is contained in the WAV audio file. Slice data is in a special "atem" RIFF chunk.
• The information for a Program, including the Pad/Layer's own loops is contained in the Program's XPM file, if you save the Program in a file.

It took me years to de-cipher what is happening behind the user interface and what the words and user interface elements really refer to. I probably still got some bits wrong.

moonlake wrote:the manual on page 237

Important: For Pad Loop to work, you must (1) set the Sample Play field (in the Global tab) to Note On instead of One Shot and (2) set the Slice field (in the first Samples tab) to Pad instead of All or a slice number.

is contradicting this...

Pad loop is not the same as sample loop. In sample edit you are setting the loop on the 'raw' sample itself, this loop (and other edit points) are saved (embedded) with the sample. If you then assign this sample to a pad layer, set the layer to ALL so the layer uses the start, end and loop points configured in SAMPLE EDIT. This was once the default action when assigning a sample to a pad layer, but I believe the default is now 'pad' (although this can be changed in preferences).

If you set the layer to PAD, it will ignore the edit points set in SAMPLE EDIT and instead use the edit points you subsequently configure on that specific pad layer. Pad parameters allow you to use the same sample on different pad layers each with different edit and loop points. It's more flexible if you plan on changing up the loops on different pads, otherwise you're often better off setting the loop in SAMPLE EDIT as it's stored within the actual sample itself rather than within one particular program.

The thing about finding sustain loops is, if the layer is set to Pad parameters, then the loop doesn't change while the note is being played, you have to re-trigger the note. You have to use All or one of the slices, and edit in Sample Edit. Maybe this has been fixed in MPC 3, I don't know.

Thanks guys, its more clear now, actually it seems quite logical and versatile now,
although I am still not quite sure what happened when I adjusted the loop and then it click when retriggered.

Also not being able to adjust the loop in realtime in the Program Edit is a shortcoming. Maby not a big deal if you do beat based loops but for finding sustain loops it seems kind of pointless.
Not a huge issue for me right now as I was just looping a single sound sample, but in general.

I can adjust the Loop Points in Realtime In Program(Track) Edit

in which MPC version?

3. Maybe we describing two different things. Can you elaborate on adjusting Loop Points in Realtime?

1. Go to Keygroup Program edit
2. Go to SAMPLES tab
3. Load a sample and set it to the program/layer
4. Set the sample to loop, activate PAD LOOP
5. Play a note so that the program starts to make sound.
6. Keep holding the note, sound keeps playing. Loop works.
7. Adjust loop END point, while holding the note down
--> Visually, the parameters change, but the SOUND DOES NOT CHANGE
8. Release the note. Sound stops.
9. Re-play the note.
--> NOW the sound has changed.

The sound only changes live while holding a note, when adjusting loop parameters in Sample Edit. Not in Program Edit. And you cannot edit Pad parameters from Sample edit. So, Pad parameter loop changes cannot be heard while holding a note, no matter what.

HouseWithoutMouse wrote:1. Go to Keygroup Program edit
2. Go to SAMPLES tab
3. Load a sample and set it to the program/layer
4. Set the sample to loop, activate PAD LOOP
5. Play a note so that the program starts to make sound.
6. Keep holding the note, sound keeps playing. Loop works.
7. Adjust loop END point, while holding the note down
--> Visually, the parameters change, but the SOUND DOES NOT CHANGE
8. Release the note. Sound stops.
9. Re-play the note.
--> NOW the sound has changed.

The sound only changes live while holding a note, when adjusting loop parameters in Sample Edit. Not in Program Edit. And you cannot edit Pad parameters from Sample edit. So, Pad parameter loop changes cannot be heard while holding a note, no matter what.

is that a bug aka did it work differently in 2.x for you?

HouseWithoutMouse wrote:And you cannot edit Pad parameters from Sample edit.

If you select SAMPLE EDIT > PROGRAM (PAD in mpc3) you can edit pad parameters such as start, end, loop, slice, tune

MPC-Tutor wrote:

HouseWithoutMouse wrote:And you cannot edit Pad parameters from Sample edit.

If you select SAMPLE EDIT > PROGRAM (PAD in mpc3) you can edit pad parameters such as start, end, loop, slice, tune

But I cant get it to loop on this page, even if loop is on.
It just stops at the end no matter what looping mode.
I assume there is another option I am missing.

EDIT: in program mode you need to set sample play to note on, then it works.

So, all things solved

The loop isnt updated in this page either.
Hm.

MPC-Tutor wrote:If you select SAMPLE EDIT > PROGRAM (PAD in mpc3) you can edit pad parameters such as start, end, loop, slice, tune

Oh, there it is.



I only looked at my Force which doesn't seem to have such a tab in Sample Edit at all. I wonder why it's not there, if it can be done in MPC3.

Edit. It's here? What am I doing wrong now.




Edit2. I figured it out. the PAD tab is shown in Sample Edit, if the sample is used in a DRUM PROGRAM. But NOT if it's only used in a KEYGROUP PROGRAM. Sorry, I mean TRACK. Or if that's the selected program^H^H^H^H^H^H^HTRACK. Select a keygroup track and the PAD tab immediately disappears. Select a drum track and the PAD tab reappears.

There, I fixed it:


Why do I feel like keygroups and the whole "sampler" thing, like what Akai S1000 and those kinds of ancient things used to be, is totally a second class citizen here. The stuff that you play with a MIDI keyboard: pianos, synths, basses, etc.