Akai is back at NAMM this year

So Akai didn't show a new MPC at NAMM this year as was rumored?

HUBA wrote:

John Schaefer wrote:And you have to make a new program for each one because you're not allowed more than one in a program. Genius work Akai.

Wait, which workstations allow for multiple numbers of mod matrixes in a single program? And what purpose does it serve?

EDIT: So with multiple layers with a different sample for each layer/zone, considering we're talking about a keygroup program and not a drum program, wouldn't some common uniformity in modulation throughout all layers/zones typically be exactly what you're after anyway?

The Kurzweil workstation keyboards have 20 layers in a program, each of those layers can contain multisamples. So you have 20 mod matrixes in a program, each with their own Env/Filter/LFO.

Anyway this is splitting hairs. As I've said previously in this thread, it's not about how many mod matrixes we can run, it's about the fact that 'Legacy mode' keygroup is enabled for every single sample in a drum program, each with their own LFO/Env/Filter, but they didn't do the *one* thing everyone was asking for which was to simply make the existing LFO stop retriggering on every press. What we've been given is almost an overkill mod matrix that can only be used as one instance in a program, and denied to the drum programs, only available in an instrument program.

So, as of now, there's still no way of any kind to make an LFO sweep filter/pitch/amplitude on a sample in a drum program. All they had to do was add a 'no reset' toggle in the existing LFO window, and they ignored the request that is probably the most long standing feature request I've seen across every MPC site.

HUBA wrote:

EnochLight wrote:
I'm not debating that it's a PITA to have to create an entirely new Keygroup track to assign Filter/LFO/mod matrix etc to different Keygroups.

How so? Isn't a keygroup tied to its own program and track? Can the mod matrix in one program affect a keygroup in anotherprogram? If not then what problem do you solve in regards to that first keygroup program by creating a new keygroup program?

The mod matrix can't affect a keygroup in another program. The only thing you can do is make a new track/program to enable making another instrument that has its own advanced keygroup/mod matrix. In any one program you can only create one advanced keygroup/mod matrix - it affects every sample assigned to it, and it's not available to drum programs which are stuck on the legacy modes.

If you offered me right now a choice between this new system, or the exact system we had in 2.15 except with a free running LFO, I'd choose the latter 100% of the time. With that setup, there's nothing you wouldn't be able to do.

John Schaefer wrote:The Kurzweil workstation keyboards have 20 layers in a program, each of those layers can contain multisamples. So you have 20 mod matrixes in a program, each with their own Env/Filter/LFO.

Oh. OK. I guess it makes sense when layering samples on top of each other as opposed to when having crossfading zones of very similar sounding samples. In that case it would very much make sense be be able to have all sorts of different settings for filter, envelope and amp on each layer except maybe for LFOs.

John Schaefer wrote:Anyway this is splitting hairs. As I've said previously in this thread, it's not about how many mod matrixes we can run, it's about the fact that 'Legacy mode' keygroup is enabled for every single sample in a drum program, each with their own LFO/Env/Filter, but they didn't do the *one* thing everyone was asking for which was to simply make the existing LFO stop retriggering on every press. What we've been given is almost an overkill mod matrix that can only be used as one instance in a program, and denied to the drum programs, only available in an instrument program.

So, as of now, there's still no way of any kind to make an LFO sweep filter/pitch/amplitude on a sample in a drum program. All they had to do was add a 'no reset' toggle in the existing LFO window, and they ignored the request that is probably the most long standing feature request I've seen across every MPC site.

I agree, it would absolutely be helpful to have an actual LFO or three on drum programs regardless of how many that are available for keygroups.

HUBA wrote:I agree, it would absolutely be helpful to have an actual LFO or three on drum programs regardless of how many are available for keygroups.

That's what gets me so riled up about this update.

We've just never, ever had the ability to run an LFO on a drum sample. I maintain that if an LFO retriggers on every key/pad press then it's simply not an LFO, it's just an envelope in the shape of sine/saw etc

Interestingly, the MPC5000 had this exact same issue (modern Akai I guess). It used to drive me insane, as otherwise I loved that box, and it still had some features we're missing now like the ability to select a folder in the browser and it would just automatically load every sample from it and make you a drum program full of those samples.

The MPC4000 had a pair of free running LFOs, however as anyone who had one will tell you, the CPU in that machine would die the moment you started using this stuff, so while it was there on paper you really couldn't run a lot of them without seeing the UI start to slow down dramatically and lag.

What is so strange is that the Arm CPU in the MPC Live/X/One has never had any kind of problem running many many drum programs simultaneously all with their own filter, envelope and LFO running... all they were missing was the ability to let that LFO roam free and stop resetting on every pad, but considering it was already running the LFO I'm fairly confident that the addition of a no-reset would not have increased CPU usage at all. If they had just done that one thing, even the existing modulation and filter options would have been immensely powerful.

If anyone from Akai should ever read this, why can't you just add this one option to the legacy keygroups? We all know you were experimenting with it, because a field for retrigger showed up briefly in the v2 desktop app (but didn't appear to function at the time) then it was removed again. So strange.

John Schaefer wrote:

HUBA wrote:I agree, it would absolutely be helpful to have an actual LFO or three on drum programs regardless of how many are available for keygroups.

That's what gets me so riled up about this update.

We've just never, ever had the ability to run an LFO on a drum sample. I maintain that if an LFO retriggers on every key/pad press then it's simply not an LFO, it's just an envelope in the shape of sine/saw etc

Interestingly, the MPC5000 had this exact same issue (modern Akai I guess). It used to drive me insane, as otherwise I loved that box, and it still had some features we're missing now like the ability to select a folder in the browser and it would just automatically load every sample from it and make you a drum program full of those samples.

The MPC4000 had a pair of free running LFOs, however as anyone who had one will tell you, the CPU in that machine would die the moment you started using this stuff, so while it was there on paper you really couldn't run a lot of them without seeing the UI start to slow down dramatically and lag.

What is so strange is that the Arm CPU in the MPC Live/X/One has never had any kind of problem running many many drum programs simultaneously all with their own filter, envelope and LFO running... all they were missing was the ability to let that LFO roam free and stop resetting on every pad, but considering it was already running the LFO I'm fairly confident that the addition of a no-reset would not have increased CPU usage at all. If they had just done that one thing, even the existing modulation and filter options would have been immensely powerful.

If anyone from Akai should ever read this, why can't you just add this one option to the legacy keygroups? We all know you were experimenting with it, because a field for retrigger showed up briefly in the v2 desktop app (but didn't appear to function at the time) then it was removed again. So strange.

They will never listen to that.
They are concentrated on finding the way to sell the most expansions they can, they don't care about LFO or the sort, they don't even care about the sampler, the marketing target of this new MPC is kindergartens, we all have to accept that.

We'd all pretty much give up any hope of seeing ANY improvements to keygroup instruments, yet here we are with a whole tonne of improvements as well as the option to use the legacy system if it's more suitable. Unsurprisingly people are still unhappy, but we are in a better place with keygroups than we were in 2.15.

No problem with people offering further suggestions on how to make things even better, just don't understand some of the very OTT criticisms about a part of the OS that has actually been improved.

Because it's not been improved, it's been messed up as always just to say it's been improved.
Then possibly they will sort it out with future updates.
Maybe.
The marketing target doesn't care about that, so Akai is concentrated on other features.
Nothing wrong or bad with that, but let's be clear.

DJ_GodsOwn wrote:So Akai didn't show a new MPC at NAMM this year as was rumored?

There were no legitimate rumors. Just randos on the internet.

John Schaefer wrote:... but they didn't do the *one* thing everyone was asking for which was to simply make the existing LFO stop retriggering on every press...

Well, actually they did ...
In the new 3.4. manual on page 231:

"Use the Reset field to determine whether the LFO retriggers on each note played (On) or not (Off)."

I just tried it and set the Reset to Off and assigned the LFO to Pitch, Pan and Filter on a slow speed and got some weird sounds on a hihat sample.
This is perhaps what you were looking for?

Logrinn wrote:

John Schaefer wrote:... but they didn't do the *one* thing everyone was asking for which was to simply make the existing LFO stop retriggering on every press...

Well, actually they did ...
In the new 3.4. manual on page 231:

"Use the Reset field to determine whether the LFO retriggers on each note played (On) or not (Off)."

I just tried it and set the Reset to Off and assigned the LFO to Pitch, Pan and Filter on a slow speed and got some weird sounds on a hihat sample.
This is perhaps what you were looking for?

You missed the word 'existing' in my sentence. You've clicked the Reset field on the new Advanced Keygroup. There's no reset toggle on the existing LFO, i.e. Drum Program LFO or Keygroup LFO running in Legacy mode.

My bad!
I was just pointing out that there are now ways to get the thing you said you wanted.

Logrinn wrote:My bad!
I was just pointing out that there are now ways to get the thing you said you wanted.

Yes, but my point is that I can't get what I wanted - being able to use an LFO of any kind in a drum program. This new feature is only for keygroup programs and only on one sample.

There's no way you could have a drum program with an LFO sweeping the filter around on some tamborines and another LFO doing stuff to some claps or toms, or in fact any 'general' fx samples. The drum programs are isolated in 'no LFO' world, and the keygroup programs are allowed to access a free-running LFO as long as you make the entire program one spanned out sample like a pad.

They only need to add one Reset box to the legacy LFO page and they'd fix absolutely everything about the sample engine now.

HUBA wrote:The way the keygroups work in OS 3 sounds extremely confusing.

Nah, it's not confusing at all IMHO.

HUBA wrote:How so? Isn't a keygroup tied to its own program and track?

Yes.

Can the mod matrix in one program affect a keygroup in anotherprogram?

No. The modulation matrix in one Keygroup is tied to that Keygroup/Track.

If not then what problem do you solve in regards to that first keygroup program by creating a new keygroup program?

Currently (and for the foreseeable future), the LFO, Filter, Envelopes (and mod matrix) are tied to 1 Keygroup/Track. So you'll need to create a new Keygroup/Track if you want to have different LFO, Filter, and Envelopes (and mod matrix) settings on a similar or same Keygroup, and use the Key Ranges feature to control multiple Keygroups at once. As I said, a PITA.

MPC-Tutor wrote:We'd all pretty much give up any hope of seeing ANY improvements to keygroup instruments, yet here we are with a whole tonne of improvements as well as the option to use the legacy system if it's more suitable. Unsurprisingly people are still unhappy, but we are in a better place with keygroups than we were in 2.15.

No problem with people offering further suggestions on how to make things even better, just don't understand some of the very OTT criticisms about a part of the OS that has actually been improved.

^^ THIS ^^

Straker wrote:Because it's not been improved, it's been messed up as always just to say it's been improved.
Then possibly they will sort it out with future updates.
Maybe.
The marketing target doesn't care about that, so Akai is concentrated on other features.
Nothing wrong or bad with that, but let's be clear.

Tutor was clear. I mean, Tutor is literally a commercial sound designer who makes Expansions and sells them - here on this very website, so - if he feels Advanced Keygroups is an improvement, who are we to say it's not?