i just want to record..please help

OKay, im no studio master, and im not trying to be yet. BUT I make a sonsiderable amount of soulful beats on the MPC2000xl, and they are saved on disk as .ALL & .PGMS files. I recently picked up a decent mic, and my question is how would I go about recording hip hop vocals. I was thinking about starting off with a simple 4 track, keeping it low budget. Can I purchase a 4 track for maybe $100 bucks, and just somehow play my tunes from the MPC to 1 track on the recorder, then use mic imputs to record on the other tracks? How do 4 tracks work, do I need a mic pre...just let me know what I need to buy. thanks

any advice is appreciated. I know its a simple question, but Im just trying to make short-term, simple recordings for now.

thanks
bena

First, here's how an analog four track works: Regular cassetes have four tracks, two per side, making a stereotrack per side when played foward. In a four track recorder, it uses all four mono tracks at once. That means if you have a 60 minute tape, it's really only 30 minutes record time in a four track, cus you can't play the 'other' side separately. Most come with a built in mic pre, but they suck balls. THen they have an instrument pre for guitars or keyboards, and those also suck balls. But hey, they work when you need them to. And, if you get nice on one of these, you will be that much better when you start to get into better gear.That's how I did it. I know cats who make album worthy stuff on four tracks.
And yes, if you get a Shure 58 mic (regular handheld) a good preamp will improve the sound a bit. Again, it can only get so good on a budget mic, though. To start out, get the 4 track, a preamp/compressor combo, and a regular Shure 58 mic. Even a cheap compressor will do, because while you record vocals, it keeps 'em in line so you don't peak out and distort the signal into the recorder. It adds a bit of warmth and quality too, and if you spend 50 bucks more to get a used compressor, you'll be amazed at the difference. Get a good pop filter too, to block your Ps and Bs from the Mic.
If you are using any stereo outputs from the MPC, you will lose one side if you only record to one track on the four track. That's bad if you got stereo samples, cus you'll lose the original instrumentation. Some engineer that recorded that original record panned the flutes left and the piano right, and boom, you just lost most of the piano, dig? And, if you go stereo out of the MPC and want to maintain the panning and stereo image of a sample, you have to use two separate tracks. That only leaves two tracks for vocals. If you have a hot chorus that overlaps your first words of the next verse or whatever, you'll quickly see that you are being limited. So, to save tracks, heres a good technique I used...
TO DUMP YOUR TRACKS FROM THE MPC: Just record the MPC from get-go onto track 4 of the recorder. Before you do, keep all sounds from the MPC panned left, so that both sides of the stereo image come out mono into the one track on the recorder. Then just use a single mono jack out of the Left side of the MPC into track 4.
VOCALS: Now, on track one, do your main vocals. Track 2, do your punch-ins, or overdubs if you have to. Next, mute track 4 and make sure just the vocals on 1 & 2 are mixed together well. Then bounce them to track 3. Now you can record over track 1 and 2 again for a chorus and an adib track, too. And there you go.

Good Luck, even though, there ain't no such thing as luck...

Bena, do you own a mixer? If so, what kind?

man you can get a digital recorder for like 250 and it would okay. I would look for one of those little Boss recorders or maybe a Zoom. I never used one but they should work fine. I have seen so many new ones that are low cost. Maybe look for a used vs-880. They can't cost that much and it will give you more tracks and a little more flexibility. That shure mic should be cool for now , like Trupro said, but you will need a better mic and some good pres later. Good Luck

skip the 4-track. If you're really broke and don't care about quality, just get a mixer w/a mic input and record str8 to regular cassete. If you can afford a decent soundcard for your computer, get that and a bootleg version of one of the multi-tracks (Sonar, Cubase, etc.) floating around the internet.

Much love for the advice to everyone....a few questions before i just go buying things.

My computer is no good, its win98 and not enough RAM to use CUBASE, or REASON or whatver, so im thinking im going to stick to analog. Im learning from you guys that I need a mic pre/compressor. So the function of this device is to improve my audio, before it goes into the recorder, which makes sense. how much is a decent pre/compressor?, and how do i get a 'pop filter'. I think i have an OCTAWWA ? mic, what type of application is pop filter, and how much will that cost me? And when using a 4 track...the end result of the song will only remain on cassette, or are their other ways/forms of saving the final product? (im sure thats why we're moving to digital).

I dont want my sound to be dirt cheap, but Im not looking for super professional stuff. All of my samples in songs are MONO, so Im assuming i wont have a problem when i record them into 1 track on the 4 track.

im going to run to guitar center and try some of this stuff out...good lookin out on the advice, and any more suggestions are greatly appreciated.

-bena

BTW...i own a bullshit mixer that came with my direct drive Gemini tables. its a standard, just used for mixing between my tables. definately not high quality in terms of recording, or recording vocals.

what does my mixer have to do with anything?

-bna

OK these cats are right. If you don't want to be DIRT cheap, why don't you go digital?

Your computer could handle sonar or cubase. RAM is really cheap, so get a bunch. Make sure it's compatible with your computer, and don't let the clerk bullshit you. You could even get your homeboy to hook up windows NT or newer if you can't get a soundcard that's compatible with Windows 98.

You can get any one of these low-cost soundcards for about the same price as a new 4 track, or even cheaper on Ebay. Any one will do, as long as it has the following: AT LEAST stereo in, to track your MPC, and a headphone out, to get low-latency monitoring while you spit vocals. The latency is a delay that souncards like the ones that come with most PCs will experience when you input a signal; you won't hear yourself back for almost a second. So the souncard upgrade reduces that problem., and the better the card, (usually) the lower the latency. You don't need a mic pre on it since you will be using an external one.

If you consider yourself good at messing with buttons, the Roland VS-880 is pretty powerful for the dough, and you can get a used one dirt cheap.
Steep learning curve, they do alot. They even make special burners you can buy for them, to back up to ROM or burn audio CDs. The Boss ones are made like shit and are annoying, but hey, they work too. You should also check out the 8 track Fostex digitals.

Mic pres and compressors can run you a bundle just for 'decent' quality. For an incredible value, the M-Audio Tampa has a great pre and a nice compressor in one, and it sounds like boxes that cost three times the price. But thats about $600. At the bottom is tyhe ART Tube studio V3. It's a preamp that will be a slightly better quality than that of a basic souncard or recorder, and it's only $119. It doesn't have a compressor, but it has a soft limiter, which is good to just keep the vocals from peaking into your recorder. The object is to get a hot level from the mic into the recorder, way up "in the yellow" on the meters, but not "in the red", which is distorting. The compressor/limiter will do that, keeping the vocals under control somewhat, and the ART has presets for beginners.

Microphones are tough. Dynamic mics, or average handhelds, are less sensitive, and therefore are lower quality and not good for recording. Better for stage, cus if you drop em they are usually OK. Now CONDENSER mics are what you want to record vocals. Do not put these things in front of a guitar amp or drums, and don't drop em! They are sensitive, and more expensive. You can buy condensers for up to 30 grand and more!
Low cost, pretty good quality condensers: the RODE NT1, at about $199 list price is a great mic, and used properly with a good preamp can offer professional quality results. At about $300, the AudioTechnica AT3035 or AT4040 are also pretty good. A Shure SM58 handheld dynamic is still listed at 80 bucks new, so springing another hundred or so for a much better quality condenser from Rode or whatever: great idea.

Pop filters are anywhere from 20 to 100 dollars. You can get away with a $20 joint. Its just a large windscreen that you put between your face and the microphone to keep your Ps from popping. Like if I say the word POP into the mic, I'll get a heavy pressure level from the P, and it litterally makes a popping sound. The filter cuts down on that. They look like pantyhose stretched over a circular wire. But trust me, they are better than using pantyhose on a coathanger. They clip to your mic stand, and sit about 2 inches form the mic, and about 4 to 6 inches from your grill.

One thing is, especially in your price range, stay way from used mics. You never know who dropped them, and they can work one minute and fail the next. Buy mics new, unless your copping $5000 Vintage Nuemans.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

. truepro,

Thanks again for the advice..i wish you were in DC, and could just set up my studio for me. I went shopping around at the GuitarCenter yesterday and here lies my problem. (and I’m sure other audio amateurs can relate). Again, I don’t want to get ahead of myself, which is why I’m valuing every piece of advice I can get, but I want to record badly, and as soon as possible, lol.

#1. Needing something to play with in the meantime, I was almost going to pick up a basic 4 track analog, and a $99 tube pre (no compressor). Apparently, the tube gives it a warm sound, and it had phantom power which I need for this condensor mic that I have. Then at the last second, I realized (with a friendly tip from a fellow shopper) that using a simple recorder like an analog 4 track, the input coming from a condensor mic, even going through a mic pre, WITH phantom power is going to be too loud. This guy said that he’s seen it before, and that the mic imput will be up in the ‘red’, which is not what I want. Basically he told me that I’m going to have to go w/ a digital recorder. I’m not too happy about that because now I have to save more money, and wait some more, plus shop around for the best digital recorder (which I’m sure will be way more complicated to configure than the easy to handle analog 4 track). patience is a virtue I guess.

2. If Im going to save money, and just get a digital recorder, which apparently can handle the sound of a condensor mic w/ phantom, then there’s no need for the sound card right? I could operate and record w/o the use of my currently low performance computer. Now with digital recorders, I like the flexibility of recording MORE tracks, and Im sure they have other tasty features as well. QUESTION, does the VS880 that you recommend have a mic pre/compressor built in?, or is it still advisable to use a separate mic pre/compressor (i.e. M-Audio Tampa) as well as the digital recorder.

And finally (since im not really an audio connoisseur, just a self produced emcee who would like to record vocals), once I have all of these things, ..lets say the phantom power mic, pop filter, mic pre/compressor (to warm up, better the sound), going into the digital VS880 (or whatever model), then would you say I have a decent set up to record vocals? Is there anything I’m overlooking, being as though I’m really about to save up, do some research and try to find all of these parts.

Also, with a digital recorder, is there still that same issue with panning stereo sounds LEFT so that they can be recorded onto 1 track and heard properly on the dig recorder? Or is that not an issue.

Sorry for all the questions…gotta be thorough. thanks..
bena

Hey no problem, it's all good. DC huh? I know a few cats there. Do you know Misha and these kids from Ish Lab? What about Sky and Northstar?

Anyway, you bring up some good questions, and it seems like you will be picking up speed quickly.

Yeah man, the chaper recorders don't have good inputs, and the trim (level boost, or 'gain' at the inputs) knobs only help so much. The guy who told you about the limits of the four track analog was sort-of-right. The problem is that it doesn't amplify that well at input, mic OR instrument levels. Also, it doesn't have alot of headroom, which is how many decibles you can pump into a device before it distorts. So your limited at both ends: it won't pickup very well, and then when you crank the trim, and just a decible or two too high, and you're distorting. Here's the thing though: There are intrument level and line level devices. A guitar needs more amplification that your MPC or say a Pro Keyboard. But once your vocal signal is inside a mic pre or processor, the device (like the tube pre) will usually output a line level signal. Then you have enough gain, but you can turn the output on the pre all the way down to nothing if it's still coming into the recorder too hard. Some 4tracks have one mic input, two instrument inputs, and a line level input, or some combo of those. Just make sure whatever you buy will handle at least two line level inputsl. If the salesman doesn't know, than ask someone else, or read the manual a bit. You sould be all good with a tube pre and a 4track. However, check out the line level thing. Also, you can buy a cheap and effective dbx compressor on ebay for next to nothing. Do not get the model with the one slider on the front. Get one with independant knob controls, so you can learn how to use a real compressor. But I urge you to get at least some kind of compressor for recording the vocals. Just a touch will really improve the signal, and again, keep it in line as far as gain at the recorder input stage. Also, if you get a cheap 2 channel compressor, you can use one side for vocals. Then, when you record the whole mix to tape or CD, you can bless the whole mix with just a touch of compression. It will make it pump a little warmer, and smooth it out a bit as well. The two channel units link left and right together, so you can put a stereo mix through it and one sides controls effect both channels. More on this later when you get there. I will look up good recomendations for cost effective compressors. Try www.sweetwater.com. You can even call them, tell them what you want to do and your price range. They are really good and won't try to upsell you that much.

Ok, 4track vs. Digital again. Yeah the VS-880 or an 8track fostex digital will do you much better than the analog four track. These units have ok digital compressors for use during mixing, which is great. Another reason I'd recomend the VS-880. However, they don't have input compressors. You could concievably route through the compressor effects, and onto a new track you are recording on, but it's more hassle than it's worth. An analog compressor is better for tracking anyway, You may have to save a little more, but I feel it's worth it. See what kind of deal you can get, then get the 4 track if you can't wait any longer to get the price you want. And yes, the VS880 or similar priced model has much more headroom than an analog 4 track.

The split-side recording protocall was invented for analog, but some have applied the idea to digital. Whereas in my old digital 4 track minidisk, I could choose any input, and select L or R. If it was oin channel 3, and I chose R, it would actually record on channel 4. Weird. This happens because a channel is actually one stereo input with two faders, then you route it. I see cats using a y-cable (two mono out the MPC, to a single stereo) plugged into a mono channel on thier recorder, or vice-versa when they are sampling. This is a no-no. What that does is carry the stereo signal to the recorder, but your plugged into a mono jack, so it doesn't have a pickup for both sides of the stereo plug. Usually it will just grab the left side of the signal. All you need to know is, even if all your samples coming out the MPC are mono, there are comming out on two jacks. Now your pumping out dual-mono. If you only jack one side into the recorder, your losing haldf the signal. Stereo is gonna lose volume and it's whole other side of the 'image', and dual mono is gonna half itself in volume as well. So, if you want to record in mono, pan all samples in the MPC mixer screen to the side of the output you are using. out of the sampler. You will not have to worry about this with the VS880. Usually, when you go to 8 tracks digital, you don't have to pan at input. They have what are called 'discreet' channels. That means they exist entirely as their own channel.


I think in your situation you are right to want to skip the computer. The power you will get out of VS880 will be fine for now. With a computer, you can do more intense graphic editing, like put in 4 bars of a song from the MPC, then loop in the computer to save recording space. But if you get nice on the VS, you can do all that too, it just takes longer. And then you won't have to worry about configuring anything, you'll just be recording. With a really slow computer, you may be in for a dissapointment. It's up to you.

If you get the gear you listed here, you would be set. If you use the digital effects that come with these recorders tastefully, you can do alot. The stuff on your list is a complete basic package, and should make you very happy. Keep me posted, and I will send you some links for gear shopping.

Peace

YO! This is a great idea. Multicom 4 channel compressor for $85 almost brand new. Not the greatest compressor in the world, but it's all good.
Buy this thing, it will do more than enough. Yeah, you don't need 4 compressors in one, but at this price, why not? Then you can do things like, track your MPC and live vocals all at once for a freestyle recording, while you compress the MPC in a linked stereo pair, and the vocals on a separate mono compressor! Of course, you'll probably use one at a time when you track vocals, but now you could compress a whole mixdown out of the recorder as well! If you are really going to do this, even if you just get the pre and the 4track, I would click "Buy it Now" right away. Click below, and if the url doesn't work, just go to ebay and look at item #2556389835 :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dllVie ... gory=23793

truPro,

I went all out and actually managed to cop a M-AUDIO mic pre/compressor, and i picked up a used vs880. In a few weeks when i get them (off ebay), im sure im going to have more technical questions as to how to set them up and whatnot. I just want to make sure that I have warm, nice sounding vocals over the stuff that Ive made on the 2000xl, or even just over instramentals from CD or something. I also want to make sure that I have a tube pre that will compliment a good microphone. Im trying to make the sound as good as possible, with out all that real real expensive stuff. I am JUST starting, so I figure Ill have to spend a little, to get the sound I want.

Hopefully its not too complicated to just record from MPC to vs880, and let me get this strait...condensor mic--> mic pre/compressor--->vs880. Im hoping thats the basic setup for a decent home studio, right now it makes sense to me....but usually things end up becoming more complicated that they appear in the world of audio/studio recording. lol.

trupro--im originally from NY(bronx, & long island), up there all the time, just happened to end up at school down here, and now im setting down here in the mid-atlantic.. we not that far..its all East Coast. thanks.

-ed

Bena,

Good show man. I feel the stuff you are coping is a bit more expensive than you originally planned, but it will do well for you for a long time.

You are on point with your signal chain for vocals now.
For basic vocal tracking, whether it be in a 48 track digital reel-to-reel studio, or in your basement, is to get a quality mic signal to tape or digital as clean and 'hot' as possible, without distortion, and without 'artifacts' (overtones form the compressors or effects that sound cheezy and overprocessed). At the price point you are getting in at, I believe that, if you put some work in, you will indeed be able to produce 'radio ready' joints. Meaning, of course, that you now are capable, at least in terms of gear, of making complete recordings that are sonically comparable to higher budget material. The next step is getting nice at recording and mixing. And, at the very least, you can capture your stuff at a good level of quality, and dump to a pro facility for mixing, should the need arrive.

Wow, man, you beat me to it. I am coping that M-Audio as well, cus I like it so much for the price. Another great feature is, it has a spdif digital output with selectable bit depth.
You know already that when you sample with the MPC, you are converting analog audio to digital audio, right after it goes into the sampler. Likewise, on the way out, you go back to analog. Unless, that is, you use the digital outs. SPDIF is a stereo digital protocall. That is, the MPC output board's spdif output runs on rca type cable, and can send stereo signal without having to go back to analog. This is because other digital devices like my digital board and your vs880 have spdif in and out as well: you can go strait in digital. Now, you may want to convert to digital with the VS. That is, you may like the sound of the converters on it versus the MPC. But dig it: at least now you have the option. So, your mic goes into the Tampa, and you can go digital out to the VS.
If you like the sound of the analog-to-digital converter in the Tampa, you will be keeping the signal integrity by not going through another gain stage at the analog input of the VS. Now you can get at least two distinctly different recording sounds, because converters really do play a part in how the overall track sounds.

I live in queens, although like I said, I got people all over. Keep me posted so I can invite you to a show if you are traveling up here.
As always, feel free to ask questions. As far as actually using the VS, I have limited experience, but there are alot of cats who own them, and you should be well informed if the need arises...

Peace

if you really want to accelerate your learning curve in the field of recording, i suggest finding a local studio that needs a b*tch a couple days a week. thats where i got my start and now i work in a professional post production house. making beats on the mpc and recording them are too seperate things. some of the best producers have no idea how to mix, but they do know how to make a real tight beat. if you are trying to wear both hats(which is always a good idea in this biz) see if there is anybody looking for an intern around you. you know, a couple of hours a couple of times a week. you'll basically probably have to make coffee, keep the studio clean, and do stuff nobody else wants to, but it is a great environment to get questions answered by pros. then you can take the info home and apply to your set up. you can ask questions on forums all day long, but you'll learn more from actually doing it with people who know what they are doing. just a suggestion. have fun with your new toys!